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KQ flops broadway but flush hits the turn

PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$2/5 1000 max buyin NL

Villain 1 ($1000) 30's white guy. Not really sure if he's a reg - I don't know all of the 2/5 regs yet. Opening a fair amount with these $15 opens. Average aggressiveness post - haven't really seen him bluff a ton. Not a nit and probably would cbet decent hands on the flop.l

Villain 2 ($800) Older white guy. Able to make folds postflop - he'll say "I got a piece of that" but still fold. Not good though. Would never slowplay this kind of flop with a set or top 2. He might just call JT I suppose or MAYBE AT, but he'd probably raise AT IMO. 3b's frequently for an older tighter guy. 3b TT and showed, and also 3b a few other times without showing. I'm assuming he 3b's AK a fair amount of the time.

Hero ($1000) Playing fairly tight. Won several medium sized pots, but basically running cold and haven't played a ton of hands for the last hour or so. Haven't shown any bluffs, and don't have real history with either player.

Folds to V1 in MP2
V1 raises to $15
Hero (HJ) Kh Qc calls $15
CO calls $15
V2 (button) calls $15
Sb/bb call $15

6 ways
Flop: Ac Jc Ts
Checks to V1, V1 checks, Hero bets $65, co folds, V2 calls, sb/bb fold, V1 overcalls

3 ways
Turn: Ac Jc Ts 5c
V1 checks, hero?

Is this just a bet/fold? If I face a raise I'm drawing to 7 outs here really, and I don't even have the nut draw. My draw is also super obvious.

V1 is not check/overcalling a set or 2 pair. He probably doesn't check the nut flush draw although he might get scared 6 ways. Txcc would probably bet. AK/AQ would probably bet. Maybe A9 or something gets scared and checks. He could conceivably check something like 67cc scared of multiway action and call. I don't know if he check/overcalls KJ or KT with the Kc. The only real way IMO he can call another bet here is if he specifically has KJ/KT with the Kc or KK with the Kc and c/c flop. He could also have a flush here, although some of the time at least he donks a lower flush.

V2 might peel with any ace really. He'd never slowplay a set, and when the flush comes I think he folds single paired aces and basically most of his range unless he hit a flush (very possible as he calls somewhat light pre), or if he somehow didn't 3b AxKc. He might not call KJ or KTo with 4 players left to act.

I have the Qc in my hand, so I actually have outs vs a lower flush, and if I check the turn I think maybe I can get looked up on the river by hands that might fold fearing 2 streets of bets when the flush comes. It also kind of announces I don't have the flush, so single paired aces might call.

I thought it was kind of tough for worse to call me, although I think I should probably have just bet/folded b/c my draw kind of sucks.

I actually checked (maybe terrible), v2 checks back.

3 way
River: Ac Jc Ts 5c 4d
V1 leads for $170, hero?

Is my hand a bluffcatcher at this point? I was really trying to figure out if I beat a significant number of hands he'd bet for value.

I think we can rule out 2 pair on the flop and flopped sets. Could have have a4 or a5? I guess it's possible that he got scared to bet the flop and backed into 2 pair. I don't think he check/overcalls AQ or AK on the flop, but I guess it's possible. Does he bet out a9 here? I don't know if he check/overcalls - he might just bet the flop.

Of course any flush is going to bet in this case, but my hand is pretty underrepped.

I'm getting 2.6-1 so I need to be good 27% of the time. I think V2 never has a flush (he'd bet the turn) so I'm not worried at all about getting raised behind IMO.

Do I just have a bluffcatcher? How easy of a call is this (or is this ever a fold).


  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I would think it very weird for the preflop raiser to check a flush draw on the flop.. They can rep so many hands its just a line that most players dont take. the reason is now they actually have to hit their hands to win instead of stealing with a cbet.. So I discount this but thats not to say he doesnt just not as likely..

    V2 can have any draw and is actually the one I would think is more likely on the flush draw but he ch after you did so he doesnt have one either.. Wtih only two other players in the pot you should necessarily assume that they have flush draws.. pairs with straight draws and aces are much much more likely..

    Ask youself this question.. What would you bet on the turn to represent your hand but fold to a raise drawing pretty much dead? $150-$200? Effective stacks are 800 so you wont be pot comitted by this bet.. thats what I would do.. K high flush beats you and if someone has a flush its probably that one since it can also make a straight.. No one raised the combo draw but not many do so thats not a tell..

    I am getting better about betting when the flush comes in.. most of the time they call if they have the nut draw or a set..and pretty much the rest

  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    LOL: After reading Play the Player I think this would be a spot to go ALL IN.

    I don't think I have the balls to do it.

    As the pre-flop raiser, his flop check into the strong board with a flush draw, means his FD was VERY WEAK! I would think that is was like below an 8 (87s, 76s, 43s) You have the Queen high draw. All his King high draws should have bet. He could have 9 high (and call). But against most of the other flushes he has, they are very difficult calls! Plus you make the move with a player behind you, so it makes you look even stronger.

    He can also bluff catch you with hands that did flop very strong (but unlikely he has). You beat them all.

    So basically, he only calls with the 9 and maybe 8 high flush.

    Otherwise, yeah I call here. You have the best nut catcher. It is under-rep and he could have a some of bluffs in this spot. This is a good decent spot to bluff. Yeah he is going to turn over small flushed a fair amount of the time. The situation sucks, but you created it by checking the turn. Also he does have some 2p that he thinks has value here that he is betting. You might also chop once in a blue moon.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I just ordered Play the Player so I can't really speak to it yet. I'm definitely interested in reading it.

    I just don't know if average players at 2/5 would fold a flush in this spot. Especially if I check the turn. They probably should because no one is bluffing this spot, but "I have a flush, how can i fold?" is what I see a lot.

    Hammah - thanks for the comment. If I had red KQ I think I just bet/fold all day, and I suppose my draw sucks so I should still bet/fold it.

    I know they don't have to have flush draws. If I can correctly read that they don't have 2 pair and probably don't have AQ/AK, it's pretty hard to get called on the turn now unless they specifically have KT or KJ with the Kc. If they have red KJ they could be dead already. Red A9 probably folds too.

    I thought the difference between having the Qc and not is that if I had red KQ if I check I'm giving Ad8c a free shot to beat me, where with KxQc Ad8c is drawing dead.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    If you're interested in results I called and the guy behind me folded and the PFR had 69cc.

    I'm assuming I would have just got raised big on the turn and I would have folded.
  • River is a call as played. Villain can show up with a worse hand than ours some of the time.

    As for the rest of the hand, I like a 3bet preflop. KQo doesn't play all that well in multi-way pots and as it turns out, our relative position isn't bad but it isn't good either (being sandwiched in between). If it's clear he isn't a nit and is opening a fair amount of hands then I think a 3bet is the best play.

    I think your bet on the flop is too small. I'm trying to think of a reason to not bet the pot ($90) and so far I haven't come up with one. We still have two players yet to act in front of us, the board is pretty wet, and we have the nuts. When the PFR checks on this board he often either has nothing or a hand he is going to check/call with like a low non-nut draw or maybe an Ace. Nobody is going to fold any two pair, ace or flush draw if we bet the size of the pot on this board. So do it.

    On the turn, we have a decent draw, but not too good. I think it's just a pretty standard bet/fold, but you need to size it where you have the possibility of getting called by worse. I think a bet like $125 is in order. Less than half pot, hoping to get called by AxXc and two pairs that didn't raise the flop (possible).

    By checking the turn through, I think you are forced to call a reasonable river bet like this. It just makes the hand difficult. I'm not exactly in the business of trying to get people to fold flushes so I would just call the river. Would need quite a bit of player history to pull that move off.
  • TJ Posts: 239Subscriber
    The turn is definitely a bet/fold, but you already figured that out. :-)

    I think you have to call the river. Once you check the turn through, he can be betting A LOT of hands for value, because your hand looks a lot like a single pair, maybe even a jack.
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