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Some Hands from Hammond

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I am in Chicago this week and had to get here by mon am so flew out early so I could play a little at Horseshoe last night. Will play again on friday and it was great to see John and Brian there too..

First off the games were way better than LA.. AGAIN.. the avg player in LA is not horrible although Bart would beg to differ Laugh

There were at least 3 fish 2 or 3 more so so players and really only one guy who I thought was decent. He made a comment after he raised me and I mistakenly asked him how many "white" chips he had. In LA our $100 are white with pink and here they are Black like in vegas. he immediately said something like "not like in LA they are black" now it could be he has been to LA or he could also recognize me and knew I was from LA..nonetheless he was a good player..

Second hand I played I got KK and I raised to 30 after two limpers.. one was an utg player who was rather bad.. guy in bb calls me and is a very loose player who raised when I first got to table with T7 dd .. now utg reraises to 105 with less than 100 left.. other limper folds and I flat call hoping to get the loosey guy to call. I have 495 to start the hand and LG has me covered.. Flop is 852r and utg goes all in.. I call again and now bb folds.. utg had JJ .. very pleased with my play there to get an extra 70 bucks from the loose player..

Two hands later I get AA I open raise to 25 (yes TDF I am betting a bit bigger.. still trying things out).. three callers..

Flop is T45 two hearts. ch I bet 75.. everyone folds to the sb who min raises me to 150.. this is generally tp so I call.

Turn is K hearts sb bets 100.. I call

river 9 hearts he checks I bluff as I have Ad Ac 150 he snap calls with a set of 10s.. *sigh* wish I knew he was a station.. but still happy with my play.. had he had pretty much any low heart I think I would have gotten him to fold..

The very next hand I have 22 utg.. so I have had about 4 hands worthy of raising this round and I dont want to limp in so I raise again.. to 20.. this time 4 callers..

Flop A23 r.. ch to me I bet 75 again and now bb calls. I think he prob has an A..

turn 6 d.. he checks I bet 130.. he pretty much insta shoves I see he has AQ and am about to tell him he is drawing dead when the

Q hits the river and he jumps up.. I turn over the 22 and he is clearly upset.. Another player at other end of table tells me the "pros" play at the big game behind our table. Laugh

Another nice hand with the fish to my right and probably my best played hand of the night was this .. He raised to only 15 from the button. he tended to raise bigger with better hands I have JT os and although I am oop he will check most rivers if he has showdown value and has bluffed a bunch of rivers too. heads up.

Flop comes KJ4 one club Kc.. ch ch

turn Qc.. i check he bets 25..and like insta bets..

River K i check and again insta bet of 65.. top pair paired and he would for sure check a Q so I call and he mucks I am good.!

My final good hand I was also very pleased with my play as I am getting better at calling with basically nothing even though I have the right odds.. Or I really should say calling with a drawing hand because I have odds against a range that doesnt kill me..

Fish on my right leaves and another loose calling station who was at our table earlier and left sits down. Earlier against him I had raised the fish on my right with 45 hearts only to have villain in this hand call me and fish fold. Since he is a calling station I never bet the 67679 board and he is upset that he checked all the way to the river with 78 and never got a dime off of me..

So calling station limps and I have AK and I raise to 30.. fish only has 130 total after bluffing in a bad spot the hand before..he calls..

Flop is 345 two hearts.. I have Ac Kh he cks I bet 45 and he goes all in. So the pot is 150+ 50 =200 only like 50 to call. well I snap call.

Turn Ad River 9c.. he has J5 hearts and says how "lucky" I got.

no real tough spots last night but I am very happy on a couple of plays.. I played so so much better because I wasnt tired.. I also kept my aggression up and open raised bigger as TDF suggested. I actually think that is a really good suggestion .. I already have a tight image and it charges players more to call me with implied odds hands and so forth. It also builds the pots a bit bigger so I think my cbet will be more effective as again it will be more costly to call me.

Now to balance this I did raise a couple of times to the same amounts with the 45hh and I think I had another small SC like 78 cc I raised with too. No one saw those hands though.

going back to hammond on friday will report some hands when I get home saturday..

ww

Comments

  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Great session :)

    Comment on first hand:
    Problem with turning AA into a bluff there is that fish have trouble letting go of strong hands that become bluff catchers. So if he has a set or two pair, he's likely making a crying call. If he made a top pair raise on the flop and he didn't have a flush, you win at showdown. If he made a top pair raise on the flop and ran into a medium flush on the river, he would probably C/C

    Comment about bigger bet sizing: Bet smaller with big hands pre! You want action, and if the S/P ratio is small enough, you have the opportunity to get away from your hand. When you raise bigger pre, you're often doomed to stack off post when you get cracked. And then if you're raising to the same amount with non-premium hands for balance, you start unnecessarily bloating pots with non-premium hands.

    Then again, sizing with these hands is more of a stylistic thing and you weren't making it absurdly large.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    I knew I was bluffing with the AA.. If he had some small flush to go with a T then he might fold. If he had turned a flush I wouldnt expect him to fold either since so many players dont fold flushes on rivers when they turn them. hope springs eternal.

    On the bet sizing.. I was raising maybe 5 to 10 bucks more than I normally would. I wasnt raising say to 40 first in with AA.. I also raised less near the button as my position gave me such an edge..

    ww
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    The problem with the AA hand is if you're bluffing, I think it's much more to get him to fold 45 or a set than a medium heart. Guys just hate folding flushes unless you bet BIG.

    He min CR the flop - I just don't see guys raise hands like T8 as much as a hand like AT or maybe like jacks. When he fires again (when the flush and an overcard comes) I don't really see him having a hand like T9. Even a hand like AT (without the ace of hearts) probably gets scared of an OFFSUIT king, let alone a king that brings a flush draw. So him firing again is pretty problematic. We have to hope he's like monkey betting a hand like QhTc that doesn't know what to do because he has a "draw"

    On the river, I just feel like if he has the Jh or the 9h fish have a hard time folding, especially for $150 in a >$550 pot. They'd rather call and show everyone they had T9 with the 9h and some idiot sucked out on them with like AQ with the Ah. After all, they have a flush right?!

    But a lot of fish, if you bet large on the river, will like sigh instamuck a set of 4's face up and complain about how they never win. It's really stupid because a set of 4's is basically the same as Tc9h on this board when you bet the river, but they're fish so they don't know that.

    IMO it's player and live read dependent. A lot of guys with unintentionally show a hardcore sour looking face when they see the 4th heart, and you know you can take it.
  • WackabrewWackabrew Posts: 400Subscriber
    Nice session Wendy. Only thing with the AA hand (and this is just from observing people where I play), is that the raise on the flop like that is often 2p+, and not just a naked top pair. People are generally afraid of boards that have the flush draw on them and don't want to get "sucked out on". Apparently that wasn't the case for this guy who obviously was only looking at his hand value and not really thinking about anything else, but I think that the concept is similar.
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    I think the key is the turn card. If the turn card was an undercard I think it's much more likely AT or something fires again. The K really should scare him but it doesn't.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    "sb min raises me to 150.. this is generally tp so I call."
    Do you think he folds TP to 3bet? This statement seems unfinished to be logical to me.
    How much did you bluff OTR? What hands had you wanted him to fold?

    "The very next hand I have 22 utg.. so I have had about 4 hands worthy of raising this round and I dont want to limp in so I raise again.. to 20.."
    This is bad. Why didn't you want to limp? Is this a reason to raise? What's the purpose of your raise? Why this size? I'm never opening small UTG cause my range for opening UTG is very strong and most people know it. If I didn't want to limp 22 I'd rather fold.

    JTos is a nice hand to 3bet weak opens PF.

    676 is a great board so cbet, especially with 45 as you don't have any SD value.

    I'm glad you're enjoying the game. Keep up the good work.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Claire said
    Comment about bigger bet sizing: Bet smaller with big hands pre! You want action,.
    If you're not getting action you should raise more often, not smaller. Better players will fold to bigger open more often than to smaller but you don't want to play vs them anyway. If fish likes his hand and wants to play he calls 25 almost as often as 15.
    and if the S/P ratio is small enough, you have the opportunity to get away from your hand. When you raise bigger pre, you're often doomed to stack off post when you get cracked.
    Your first concern should be to get value. No need to plan for folding when you should be going for value. Also if you give them incorrect odds to crack your hand you actually making money by getting stacked.

    And then if you're raising to the same amount with non-premium hands for balance, you start unnecessarily bloating pots with non-premium hands.
    And now you're saying that we're not getting folds with bigger opening. There's no consistency here in your logic.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    TDF said

    "sb min raises me to 150.. this is generally tp so I call."
    Do you think he folds TP to 3bet? This statement seems unfinished to be logical to me.
    How much did you bluff OTR? What hands had you wanted him to fold?

    "The very next hand I have 22 utg.. so I have had about 4 hands worthy of raising this round and I dont want to limp in so I raise again.. to 20.."
    This is bad. Why didn't you want to limp? Is this a reason to raise? What's the purpose of your raise? Why this size? I'm never opening small UTG cause my range for opening UTG is very strong and most people know it. If I didn't want to limp 22 I'd rather fold.

    JTos is a nice hand to 3bet weak opens PF.

    676 is a great board so cbet, especially with 45 as you don't have any SD value.

    I'm glad you're enjoying the game. Keep up the good work.

    The guy on the 667 board was a calling station. I am not betting as a bluff basically against this type of player. There were two other players that I was isolating that I would have bet on this flop but him no way.. only value.. Playing the player..

    As far as the 22 hand I really wanted to disguise my hand.. If I had limped I think someone could put me on a big hand more likely then if I raised.. I am beginning to pretty much raise every pot I am in if I am opening the betting.. Only in very passive games would I consider limping with a hand.. There were at least two players behind me that would have considered isoing my limp and I would have to call a much bigger bet than 20.. Also they werent necessarily raising with a tight range either.. but they werent three betting me so in a lot of ways I could raise as a block to have to pay more to see a flop.. I have done this alot since my image is so tight I dont tend to get threebet without a big hand.. Then depending on their stack I could still call and they really dont have a clear idea of my range.. but I have a pretty good idea of theirs..

    ww
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    This will be my last post on this forum on sizing with premium hands. I raise and cbet smaller, and here's why. I said I preferred raising smaller stylistically. I'm not attacking anyone for raising bigger or trying to get TDF to change his style.


    If you cbet pot when you have an OP or TPTK and half pot to 2/3 pot, that's super unbalanced. So if you're going to bet pot every time you have an OP, you have to do the same thing as a bluff which isn't cost effective (and more of the time when you're cbetting it won't be with TPTK+). Yes, even fish notice the difference between bombing and a stab.

    I like to be able to maneuver post-flop and have some room for creativity both with AA and 78s. Raising big when stacks are shallow allows for less maneuverability. And when I raise pre in a cash game, I usually want at least one caller. It's usually not for the sole purpose of winning the blinds like it might be in a tournament. Raising smaller allows for this more frequently.

    If you raise to 5x pre, anyone with a pocket pair is still getting more than right odds to call to crack you and you'll pay off more often. It's actually better to be not super when you're setmining sometimes, because it's more likely that you'll stack the guy instead of him folding the turn.

    I didn't say we were never getting folds with bigger openings either. I said that when you raise big with a non-premium hand and get called and forced to play the hand OOP, it's usually bad.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    Thehammah said
    As far as the 22 hand I really wanted to disguise my hand.. If I had limped I think someone could put me on a big hand more likely then if I raised.. I am beginning to pretty much raise every pot I am in if I am opening the betting.. Only in very passive games would I consider limping with a hand.. There were at least two players behind me that would have considered isoing my limp and I would have to call a much bigger bet than 20.. Also they werent necessarily raising with a tight range either.. but they werent three betting me so in a lot of ways I could raise as a block to have to pay more to see a flop.. I have done this alot since my image is so tight I dont tend to get threebet without a big hand.. Then depending on their stack I could still call and they really dont have a clear idea of my range.. but I have a pretty good idea of theirs..
    I like your thought process. It might make sense if nobody exploits you. I know one decent reg in my player pool who does it. He opens to 15 in EP with hands he wants to see cheap flop. Now I just 3bet him with ATC IP when he does it. Works great so far, will see if and how he will adjust to that.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    TDF said
    Thehammah said
    As far as the 22 hand I really wanted to disguise my hand.. If I had limped I think someone could put me on a big hand more likely then if I raised.. I am beginning to pretty much raise every pot I am in if I am opening the betting.. Only in very passive games would I consider limping with a hand.. There were at least two players behind me that would have considered isoing my limp and I would have to call a much bigger bet than 20.. Also they werent necessarily raising with a tight range either.. but they werent three betting me so in a lot of ways I could raise as a block to have to pay more to see a flop.. I have done this alot since my image is so tight I dont tend to get threebet without a big hand.. Then depending on their stack I could still call and they really dont have a clear idea of my range.. but I have a pretty good idea of theirs..
    I like your thought process. It might make sense if nobody exploits you. I know one decent reg in my player pool who does it. He opens to 15 in EP with hands he wants to see cheap flop. Now I just 3bet him with ATC IP when he does it. Works great so far, will see if and how he will adjust to that.
    In LA I need to limp more since there are a number of players that after seeing me raise 20 with 22 would three bet more often. This wasnt happening in the game last night. I try my best to change my play bet sizes etc.. based on the players.. Last night was easy since there was really only one decent player and he only made one move on me when I raised a combo draw on the turn. He bluffed me but with the best hand.. I really couldnt call so I just folded as I am really at a table to take the fishes money. He seemed perfectly happy taking turns with me isoing the bad players..

    now if I played with him regularly would he adjust? sure.. but then I could as well.. in the mean time I will try to best of my ability use my natural tight image and block raise pre if I can..

    ww
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire said

    This will be my last post on this forum on sizing with premium hands. I raise and cbet smaller, and here's why. I said I preferred raising smaller stylistically. I'm not attacking anyone for raising bigger or trying to get TDF to change his style.


    If you cbet pot when you have an OP or TPTK and half pot to 2/3 pot, that's super unbalanced. So if you're going to bet pot every time you have an OP, you have to do the same thing as a bluff which isn't cost effective (and more of the time when you're cbetting it won't be with TPTK+). Yes, even fish notice the difference between bombing and a stab.

    I like to be able to maneuver post-flop and have some room for creativity both with AA and 78s. Raising big when stacks are shallow allows for less maneuverability. And when I raise pre in a cash game, I usually want at least one caller. It's usually not for the sole purpose of winning the blinds like it might be in a tournament. Raising smaller allows for this more frequently.

    If you raise to 5x pre, anyone with a pocket pair is still getting more than right odds to call to crack you and you'll pay off more often. It's actually better to be not super when you're setmining sometimes, because it's more likely that you'll stack the guy instead of him folding the turn.

    I didn't say we were never getting folds with bigger openings either. I said that when you raise big with a non-premium hand and get called and forced to play the hand OOP, it's usually bad.
    I think there isnt ONE way to play. I also think this is highly highly dependent on your perceived image and how often you play with the same players.. Now a common stereotype is Asian players are more "active" Its not to say Claire is but I am 100% sure that many of the other players would assume this simply because she is Asian. Just like being white I get the "tight girl" image.. Its what we do with it that counts.

    I am still a novice on many plays that Claire has been doing for a long time. I am getting more confident with them but its a rather steep learning curve..but I will get there.. and when I do I would agree that in general smaller raises and raising more often in position is the better MO..

    The best news is I can start early in a session raise more get more fold equity build my stack and gradually move to a more loose style.. but with my winning image I will still get away with a lot of stuff..

    ww
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    "I have no principles; I make Adaptability to all circumstances my Principle."
    The Samurai Creed
  • goblue11 Posts: 2Subscriber
    I'm the guy that was on your left, I just started scamming this forum and saw your posts and instantly had a hunch it was you. I actually commented to a friend later that day about how impressed I was. It was a pleasure playing with you.

    Wrt the AA hand, I agree normally that a minraise is a TPish hand but that scenario was different. a.) it was a check/minraise vs. a std minraise. b.) the pot was pretty big as was your cbet vs. normal pots. I would call the flop as well but when the turn comes there's just nothing you beat anymore.

    I'll look out for you on Friday and introduce myself.

    It's cool that I saw this! :)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Cody

    Welcome to the Forum! Glad you found the post.. You really were the only person at the table that was decent and your raise with the 6 when I raised with the back door flush and straight draw was right on. I knew I wasnt repping much but you were the only person who would have known that. If you werent there I pretty much assume I would have either won the hand there or would have only been called (how strong can they be?).

    Its so much fun getting to meet everyone when I travel. The downside is I am beginning to wonder if I get recognized a bit too much for my own good. When we have the SOP meet in vegas I will be the one introduce Bart to everyone lolWink
  • goblue11 Posts: 2Subscriber
    Thehammah said
    TDF said
    Thehammah said
    As far as the 22 hand I really wanted to disguise my hand.. If I had limped I think someone could put me on a big hand more likely then if I raised.. I am beginning to pretty much raise every pot I am in if I am opening the betting.. Only in very passive games would I consider limping with a hand.. There were at least two players behind me that would have considered isoing my limp and I would have to call a much bigger bet than 20.. Also they werent necessarily raising with a tight range either.. but they werent three betting me so in a lot of ways I could raise as a block to have to pay more to see a flop.. I have done this alot since my image is so tight I dont tend to get threebet without a big hand.. Then depending on their stack I could still call and they really dont have a clear idea of my range.. but I have a pretty good idea of theirs..
    I like your thought process. It might make sense if nobody exploits you. I know one decent reg in my player pool who does it. He opens to 15 in EP with hands he wants to see cheap flop. Now I just 3bet him with ATC IP when he does it. Works great so far, will see if and how he will adjust to that.
    In LA I need to limp more since there are a number of players that after seeing me raise 20 with 22 would three bet more often. This wasnt happening in the game last night. I try my best to change my play bet sizes etc.. based on the players.. Last night was easy since there was really only one decent player and he only made one move on me when I raised a combo draw on the turn. He bluffed me but with the best hand.. I really couldnt call so I just folded as I am really at a table to take the fishes money. He seemed perfectly happy taking turns with me isoing the bad players..

    now if I played with him regularly would he adjust? sure.. but then I could as well.. in the mean time I will try to best of my ability use my natural tight image and block raise pre if I can..

    ww
    I wasn't bluffing you, I was value betting :)
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