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QQ on the button - missed bets?

reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Been at the table about 30 minutes, several regs, a few new faces.

2/5 NLH, good Asian reg raises to 20 in MP1, old man straight-forward white guy calls in MP2, folds to me OTB, I 3-bet to $75 with QQ. Blinds fold, Asian reg calls, old man folds. Heads up, pot is $182.

Flop is AKTr. Check-check.
Turn Kd, backdoor diamonds (AKdd). Check-check.
River 8c (brick). Check-check.

Pre-flop, I wanted to get it heads up, get the old man with Ax or pocket pair out.

OTF, I checked it back because I didn't feel like I had anything to protect, I was wa/wb.

OTT, I checked again because I didn't know what I was getting value from that was worse, and I didn't think I could get an A to fold.

OTR, I checked yet again because I didn't know what to do.

Did I miss a bet anywhere? Thanks!

Comments

  • JerseyJay Posts: 181Subscriber
    I'd be interested to hear what others think, but I probably double barrel here almost always depending on the villain. You may have the best hand and get value from a draw. You are also drawing to a gutshot. I would hate to be check calling here against an aggressive player and be forced to fold away equity if the opponent picks up on our weakness.
  • Drew5harkDrew5hark Posts: 578Subscriber
    I feel like there is a bet here somewhere, perhaps the turn to pick up equity against a hand like JT or JJ but not much else better will fold, (maybe KQ but I doubt it). On the river, any ace is surely looking you up as well as any K IMO....I'm not sold on a double barrell as it is seems like a nut type hand or weakness and would probably depend on your image and what you think of the villian in the hand....It's not entirely inconcievable that a hand like AJor KQ might fold to a turn double barrell but I have my doubts.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    JasonOury said

    I'd be interested to hear what others think, but I probably double barrel here almost always depending on the villain. You may have the best hand and get value from a draw. You are also drawing to a gutshot. I would hate to be check calling here against an aggressive player and be forced to fold away equity if the opponent picks up on our weakness.
    I would agree, if we were out of position. In this case, there is no chance of check/calling since I am on the button. I checked back BECAUSE I may have the best hand and have a gutshot, and didn't think my hand could withstand a check/raise.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    AndrewLorraine said

    I feel like there is a bet here somewhere, perhaps the turn to pick up equity against a hand like JT or JJ but not much else better will fold, (maybe KQ but I doubt it). On the river, any ace is surely looking you up as well as any K IMO....I'm not sold on a double barrell as it is seems like a nut type hand or weakness and would probably depend on your image and what you think of the villian in the hand....It's not entirely inconcievable that a hand like AJor KQ might fold to a turn double barrell but I have my doubts.
    On the turn, I did consider betting to get value from exactly JT or JJ, but like you said, not much that's better will fold, I think ESPECIALLY not KQ, now that KQ turns trip kings.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    JasonOury said

    I'd be interested to hear what others think, but I probably double barrel here almost always depending on the villain. You may have the best hand and get value from a draw. You are also drawing to a gutshot. I would hate to be check calling here against an aggressive player and be forced to fold away equity if the opponent picks up on our weakness.
    If player who calls you is pretty loose I might bet the turn if he checks twice to me. On this board I am not sure you can get more than one or two streets of value AND if he is a decent player who knows you arent three betting and checking AA or KK then he will know you have QQ or JJ..

    So if he knows what your range is then if I am in the blinds I will check on flop and if he checks then when the K hits the turn check again.. Now if he checks a second time I will put out a small value bet on the river trying to get called by say JJ or 99s. maybe 1/2 pot or less. If he raises me I am snap folding..

    Wendy
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    reedmylips said
    AndrewLorraine said

    I feel like there is a bet here somewhere, perhaps the turn to pick up equity against a hand like JT or JJ but not much else better will fold, (maybe KQ but I doubt it). On the river, any ace is surely looking you up as well as any K IMO....I'm not sold on a double barrell as it is seems like a nut type hand or weakness and would probably depend on your image and what you think of the villian in the hand....It's not entirely inconcievable that a hand like AJor KQ might fold to a turn double barrell but I have my doubts.
    On the turn, I did consider betting to get value from exactly JT or JJ, but like you said, not much that's better will fold, I think ESPECIALLY not KQ, now that KQ turns trip kings.
    Are players in your player pool calling a three bet with JT? for 100bbs effective stacks? Is the reg a good or bad player? That makes a big difference in his range. But in general he is first to act and called a three bet.. Thats a big ace or a pocket pair..

    When the flop comes AKT its a flop that I am either way ahead or way behind. That makes it very difficult to get called by worse for value. If he is a really good player he would probably check Ax hoping to get value from my hand on later streets. If he is a good player he could try bluffing with say JJ but he didnt bet. That tells me he has a hand with showdown value.

    Given this line its probably best o check it down or make a very small bet on the river if its checked again on the turn..

    nitty girls opinion Laugh

    Wendy
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    wendyweissman said
    JasonOury said

    I'd be interested to hear what others think, but I probably double barrel here almost always depending on the villain. You may have the best hand and get value from a draw. You are also drawing to a gutshot. I would hate to be check calling here against an aggressive player and be forced to fold away equity if the opponent picks up on our weakness.
    If player who calls you is pretty loose I might bet the turn if he checks twice to me. On this board I am not sure you can get more than one or two streets of value AND if he is a decent player who knows you arent three betting and checking AA or KK then he will know you have QQ or JJ..

    So if he knows what your range is then if I am in the blinds I will check on flop and if he checks then when the K hits the turn check again.. Now if he checks a second time I will put out a small value bet on the river trying to get called by say JJ or 99s. maybe 1/2 pot or less. If he raises me I am snap folding..

    Wendy
    I agree, Wendy. Turns out he had EXACTLY the hand to extract a small bit of value from on either the turn or the river - JTdd; turned a royal draw with a pair. I probably could have gotten $100-$150 on the turn, or $50 to $75 on the river. But, I didn't want to be results-oriented, so I didn't post what he had, but of course, it turned out he had exactly the hand I could get some value from, although he might have even c/r me off my hand OTT... I think it would have been tough to get called by anything else worse however.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Wow he called with such short stacks with JT dias in a three bet pot? He can't be that good of a player.. AND he had his opportunity to steal it on the flop when you checked and he didnt take it. I would put him in the "bad reg" bucket from now on and next time you could bet the turn as his range is now much wider. But in general I would say that 90% of the player pool in the games we are playing would not have had JT and my line is probably best.

    Now in bigger deeper games you could call preflop..AND in games with better players like 10/20 or in some 5/10 a very very good player MIGHT raise you on the turn with that draw.. But again most players would call .. so I dont think you would need to worry about that either..

    Given all of this if you are short..say 50 bbs I would check flop and call laggy players all in and fold to NITs bet .. I played against a laggy player during WSOP and three bet with QQ and had only 250 left in 2-5 game after losing a pot a few hands earlier.. He called me in pos Flop came A high and I checked and he shoved instantly. I folded and he showed 88..

    A few sessions later I had a similar situtation against another Laggy and check called all in on flop and picked off a player with something like K high.. this works great against looser more aggressive players that think you will fold to scare cards on flop to an all in. I think of it this way.. If I bet they will fold all worse hands and call with better.. classic way ahead and way behind.... but if I check I get the Laggy to bet 100% of his range, some of which I win and some I lose but since he is loose its much better than getting him to fold all worse hands and only calling better hands..

    Wendy
  • I don't bet anywhere. Hand is played fine. As for him being a "good reg", calling a 3bet OOP with JT is a huge leak, but I see plenty of people do it and these are people considered to be "good". I love getting called when I have position, though.
  • ILYA Posts: 129Subscriber
    I play the hand the same way. Totally happy to check it down in a 3 bet pot. You already got your value pre. I am desperately hoping to get to showdown once this flop hits.
    I would not try to barrel a guy of an Ace in a 3bet pot - bad risk/reward scenario. And you obviously have to give up on that turn card anyway.
    I would not bet turn as some suggesting. All you gonna do is get raised by the nuts. This is the most classic way ahead / way behind on the turn. All hands that you beat now are drawing dead against you (~2 outs).
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Bet the turn and/or river hella small to get max value.
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