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Nitty Ned vs. Value Bart

Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
So I've been watching a lot of CLP lately and I'm convinced that if you play 5-5 or 5-10 and you're not watching CLP, you're falling way behind.

My game has improved so much in the last few months. I think the following hand is a good demonstration of that.

5-5 NL $1k cap
Effective stacks around $600

I'm in the cutoff with JJ.

Two limpers and I make it $30.

Blinds fold and the limpers call.

Flop is KK4 rainbow.

Limpers check and I bet $60

One limper calls and one limper folds.

Turn is a 2. Limper checks and I check behind. I figure if I'm ahead, I'm not too worried about giving a free card. If I'm behind, I'm crushed. Your thoughts on the turn check?

The river is another King.

So final board of: K K 4 2 K

The limper checks.

Now the old me would have checked behind.

But this time, a little avatar of Bart Hanson appeared on my shoulder and started screaming, "Value bet, value bet, value bet!"

Then, over on my other shoulder an avatar of my old friend named Nitty Ned appeard and said, "Check behind! He's got the case king! He's setting a trap and you're about to fall right in it! Arrrrghhhhhh! Panic!"

Nitty Ned then wet himself.

I decide to value bet $100.

The limper hems and haws a bit and finally calls.

My Jacks are good and I take it down. And an extra $100 that I never would have had before goes into my stack.

Laugh

P.S. Later he told me he had a pocket pair. Probably something like 66 or 77, I'm guessing.

P.P.S. Feel free to comment on how the hand was played.

Comments

  • LucasE Posts: 167Member
    Consider betting the turn. Your reason for checking should never be 'if I'm ahead, I'm not worried and if I'm behind I'm crushed'. If you are thinking about betting, decide if that's the most +EV line or if checking is better. If you bet here, can you get called by worse? Are you likely to be c/r'd by a worse hand and be bluffed off a winner? If you check now, can you get value on the river that you wouldn't get on the turn? Etc. etc.

    Sometimes betting the turn to continue getting called by worse pocket pair hands is the best line. Sometimes checking and then betting almost every river card is best. It depends on the villain and if you think he's sticky enough that he'll call you down with a pocket pair or if a guy holding 55-TT is capable of folding to multiple barrels.

    The river needs to be a fist-pump-snap-value-bet mentality. You're good here >99% of the time. Your 'Nitty Ned' sounds more like 'Massive Monsters Under The Bed Fred'. It sounds like you're identifying good spots to make value bets and need to work a lot on your mental game.
  • BartBart Posts: 6,078AdministratorLeadPro
    I appreciate the warm words DrToast, but I have to agree with LucasE, this river isn't even close to a check.

    I think a better example would be if you raised the CO with 99 and then bet an 822 flop. One guy called. Turn was a J and you bet again, guy called. River T. He checks and now you?

    I also don't think that this is a great spot to check back the turn in the KKK hand because when you bet your opponent will never think that you would have a K making him call you down lighter.

    Bart
  • PokerIsFrustrating Posts: 657Member
    Just curious Bart - if we raised preflop why do you think villain wouldn't expect us to bet the turn with trip K's?

    Most fish from my observations are going to keep betting AK in that spot because they're not full and they don't want to get sucked out on, or just because they have trips and people are supposed to bet trips.

    I do think if you bet they'll expect you to have trips or a total bluff, so if they decide you don't have AK they'll probably call any pair.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    The only thing I might have done a bit differently is bet a bit less on the flop.. With only one limper calling the flop bet was almost pot.. Dont I want to get hero looked up by say 22-TT?

    Then if I bet say $40 or $45 I can bet around $90 on the turn and still get looked up light.. and if I am raised I can fold.. but if villain checks again on the river I can make a $100-$115 bet and still get called..

    Is my thinking good here? In general when the board is paired and I am the preflop raiser I tend to bet a bit less ..

    wendy
  • LucasE Posts: 167Member
    PokerIsFrustrating said

    Just curious Bart - if we raised preflop why do you think villain wouldn't expect us to bet the turn with trip K's?

    Most fish from my observations are going to keep betting AK in that spot because they're not full and they don't want to get sucked out on, or just because they have trips and people are supposed to bet trips.

    I do think if you bet they'll expect you to have trips or a total bluff, so if they decide you don't have AK they'll probably call any pair.
    My experience on this one is that people see everyone so very rarely double barreling flopped trips that they don't think you'll do it. Sure, everyone likes to 'put you on AK' but they also never see someone betting AK twice on a KKXX board. People love to slow play and love to 'group think' when they see the same play over and over. So, in this type of spot you're likely to get looked up light because in villain's mind you would slow play a Kx hand, therefore you're bluffing in my small PP are good.
  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    I agree that the river was a clear bet. I wasn't trying to indicate it was anything other than that. I was only saying that at some point in the past, I might have checked it.

    I've read all the replies and I think I still like my turn check. I think it's what helped me get value on the end. It's hard to know for sure without knowing the pocket pair of the villain, but he might have folded to a turn bet. The higher it is, the harder it is for people to lay it down.

    If I bet on the turn, even if he doesn't give me credit for a King, he knows I'm the preflop raiser and could still have a bigger pocket pair.
    Thehammah said

    The only thing I might have done a bit differently is bet a bit less on the flop.. With only one limper calling the flop bet was almost pot..
    Two limpers called the raise. I bet about 2/3 pot on the flop.
  • TDF Posts: 1,130Subscriber
    DrToast said
    Two limpers called the raise. I bet about 2/3 pot on the flop.
    This logic is not the best. You need to start thinking from analysis of their calling range. The board is super dry there are no draws in their range so it's very narrow. They are not going to call you very often. On the other hand what is your range for betting this board? If you are PFR you're going to cbet it very often (cause it's a great board to cbet). This makes your betting range very weak cause you're going to miss this flop way more often then hit. You want to bet as small as possible with your weak range and expect it to work cause it's not going to take much to make them fold.
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    This is a great board texture on the flop IMO. most of the player pool isnt capable of value betting less than a K here, so it looks like you have a K or nothing in their minds, and they tend to lean towards thinking its nothing.
    You can getting called down really light in this kind of spot, and you have to recognize that your pair crushes their pair.
    Take advantage of how they play their hand face up, and don't bomb it, but definately bet bet bet all 3 streets and go for max value.
    The check on the turn is a negative freeroll youre giving yourself against a PP w/ 2 outs in that they are getting infinite odds to hit, and they have some implied odds.
    river is the best possible card, as no one folds a full house... (zeebo theorem). Bet
  • zmoney11 Posts: 28Member
    I like the bet on the river, but I think you can bet a lot more. pot was 210. why not go for gold and bet 180-210. (this makes up for the check on the turn) Players can not fold a boat.
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