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$5/$5 turned straight flush bet sizing?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
edited March 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Hero has been running just horrible all month. I have significantly tightened up. playing alot more abc . Card dead no value and check folder. This session has been much of the same.

Hero has around 1200.. down about 800 after being up early when card dead for a few hours. I am in MP2

V1-splashy villain who is in the game for at least 3 to 4k.. will take stabs at pots..bluff rivers and never folds to a 3 bet if he is the raiser preflop. very sticky pre but plays alot more straightforward post.. He on co.. He has around 2000..

V2-boy from brazil. Yep the possy is back. This guy is the more aggro of the group.. he is on btn. Has been losing even more than me tonight. I dont think I have seen him win a significant pot. doubled up V1 with AQ vs V1s AK a round earlier.. has had to fold ALOT... he is main villain in hand has around 1000..

folded to me and I have 7 8 with running so badly I am not opening this up front ..but in MP I just cant fold this hand. If I get multiway action I am just going to play rather fit or fold post flop. I get 4 callers in total including V1 and V2 pot $100

Flop 5 T 9

I flop pretty well checked to me and I cbet $70. I have a ton of equity as long as someone else doesnt have a better flush.. even so I am not expecting to get played back at that much except by V1 of which I will bet threebet vs his range.. V1 and V2 are the only callers.. pot $370...

Turn J

lol..at first I was like "shit! now someone can have a better flush" then I realized I had the bottom straight flush so I obviously have to bet considering I have the lead.. Whats your sizing here??.. btw If i was beat that would mean I hit the jackpot because KQhh is a higher straight flush and both are cards play.. so this is a great freeroll situation..

Hero?

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Comments

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    If someone turned a big flush you'll get action no matter how much you bet , but that situation is somewhat rare. More likely villains have hands like QJ , KJ, QT, KT, A9, etc.

    I would bet smallish like $135 to get value from Tx, 9x, and Jx. The good thing is that most hands in the range of callers in a single raised pot connect with the J , but the bad thing for hero is that a third heart came and she is still betting in a multiway pot.
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    I think I bet around $200. You need to get value from your big hands and your still basically giving him 3:1 if he's on some pair and a draw etc. if he has any kind of a hand he wants to see a river with he should call.
  • ANason21ANason21 Posts: 166Subscriber
    On a board this wet I wouldn't be worrying too much about making someone fold. You may be able to force a spaz, but that's villain dependent. I'd bet $200 as a standard play against most villains, but if I had a read that one of them might go crazy if we put out a weak-looking bet I'd shade it smaller, maybe like $150.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Thanks for the responses guys. I wanted to keep the lead and I felt I should bet pretty small hoping if one of them had a flush they would raise me.

    well V1 folded.. but V2 now raises me to 200..

    Hero?

    I think if I raise again it really will be too strong.. but after I was kicking myself because I think if I bet $150 its not that much different and it allows me to get alot more money in by the river..
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    Thanks for the responses guys. I wanted to keep the lead and I felt I should bet pretty small hoping if one of them had a flush they would raise me.

    well V1 folded.. but V2 now raises me to 200..

    Hero?

    I think if I raise again it really will be too strong.. but after I was kicking myself because I think if I bet $150 its not that much different and it allows me to get alot more money in by the river..
    So you bet $150 and V2 made it $200 more? I'm also confused if V2 is before you to act.

    He almost has to have a flush or straight or a combo draw of both. I think you just call now and shove river. At that point you basically have a pot size bet left if I'm reading all this correctly. If he's bluffing he's not calling a raise but may bluff the river (if he acts before you). It's also possible he has KhQx or some variation (AhJx, KxQh, AhQx etc) so even a heart or straight card on river is the nuts to him.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    v is on btn I have to act first
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    How much did u bet ott? 100?

    I would make a small 3bet ott and then shove river.
  • ZambrotAZambrotA Posts: 372Subscriber
    edited March 2016
    I assume the pot being $310, ($100 pf + 3 x $70), sorry if i'm wrong for some reason.

    i will also assume they are both IP, i know the spazzy V1 is CO but idk about the Brazilian Boy.

    Assuming they are IP and as you say the V1 likes to take stabs at pots, don't you prefer check/raising OTF.
    If you had passive players IP, the x/r would be bad maybe but in this case is it not good spot to do it @thehammah ?

    AS played, i would rarely check, i'm not betting over 1/2 pot here (between $130-$150), it's hard to get the stacks in by the river if none of them raises you but you can still make another $400 OTR if things go your way.

    OTT i expect to get called by hands like JT, JQ, Ah9x/8x, Kh9x/8x, all the flushes, KQ, KJ.

    BTW, checking OTT i don't like it so much oop, but if i would do it and without a specific read/reason, i'm donking the river as 3 flush boards are scary boards for most of the people.

    As played, I guess you bet $100 and got min raised, I would click it back 100% of the time.
    Anything between $350 ($150 more) and $400 ($200 more).

  • BKismBKism Posts: 203SubscriberProfessional
    $235 on the turn. You're not targeting J's. You are targeting other flushes, hopefully A high, as well as V1's two pair hands, specifically JT. He doesn't sound like a man that wants to fold top two on the turn.

    I am confused by your turn action. Led $100 and clicked to $200?

    If so, because you are a bit handcuffed by your smallish bet size, we need to get more money in this pot. If we just call, we lose the lead and may get checked back on. We cannot depend on our friend from out of town to do our betting for us. We must do the hard work of putting those chips in the center of the table. The river could come bad for our Villain's range and we could get no action, anyway. So, let's make it $375, which makes the $1165. We just need to get 5 and change in on the river. A reraise smaller than that is fishy. Hammah, you must bring out the hammah at some point in this hand, and now is the time. If he folds, you were not getting anymore anyway.

    You could even make an argument for shoving now. Looks more defensive and less nuttish than the drip drip drip of bet click click.

    Let's stack this boy from Brazil and turn this month around.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,921AdministratorLeadPro
    edited March 2016
    To extrapolate from Wendy's post here, I am going to assume that she bet $100 on the turn.

    I find this hand extremely interesting because I think that even with basically the "mortal nuts" you are somewhat handcuffed on the turn do to SPR and your small bet sizing. A min click back seems stupid strong and I probably prefer just a sigh and a shove, to make it look like you are going nuts with A A× and that you are frustrated by your losing session.

    One of the reasons why I think that this hand is so interesting is because of the distribution of hearts. I am assuming that this Brazilian boy isn't calling you with K X, so of the flushes in his range that really only leaves 5 6, (which may raise the flop with some frequency), K Q, the nut flush and 6 4. His small sizing seems to be indicative of a two pair or straight type of hand, sort of block raising the turn to get value. I agree with others here and make a more standard $200-$250 turn sizing.

    God, its so weird, as played, I put on a tank and your biggest sour face and shove. The combos of lower heart hands that find a crazy fold are so infrequent and I think you may get a sigh call out of two pair or a straight here more often then clicking it back. But you have to put on an act--put on your best tank job, and I mean really, fucking work it...

    ________________________________________

    On another note,

    I am not picking on you, but I still see a confusing trend in some of your strategy posts with the exact hand recall action. Obviously I could be wrong, as I have known others that don't get the exact details correct, but from a professional poker trainers opinion, I feel like that this may be due to the fact that some of your emotions may be clouding your actual hand recall and that may stunt your growth in terms of learning from these experiences.

    Bart
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I remember it fine. I just dont want to right everything out and as I build the hand I think something gets lost

    maybe doing a recap of the action might help
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    edited March 2016
    So to recap....

    I raise in MP with 7 8

    both villains call me ..one is in CO the other is on the BTN.. there are others in the hand but not after the flop..pot $100

    Flop 5 T 9 I cbet $70 and both villains call.. pot $310

    Turn J I bet $100 CO folds boy from brazil raises to $200.. I call..

    If I were to raise I would have to basically bomb it like Bart suggested.. making it look like I have a flush that I am protecting.. that said I think I get all other flushes to fold against this villain. If the CO had raised me he is going to call a big reraise with a much wider range..

    River 9

    This is an interesting card.. As now villain has to worry that I have a full house if he had a flush.. that said this is the one boy from brazil that is going to thin value bet.. both strong made hands ..weaker hands and bluffs.. if I just come out and lead here I might get him to pretty much fold everything.. I could lead small again.. but in the end I decided to check and go for a small check raise..

    Villain bets $175.. he bet even smaller than he did on turn.. So now I really dont think he has the nut flush .. but if he has a small flush he might call a smallish raise..but more likely he was making a move on the turn..

    So I raise to $415.. he tanks for like 3 min.. finally calls.. taps table when he sees my hand.. shows the single Q


    what do you think he had.. that he would bet like this and then call the river? I have my own idea..

    ww
  • BartBart Posts: 5,921AdministratorLeadPro
    edited March 2016
    I didn't say that you should make it look like you are trying to protect a flush, I said you should make it look like that you are frustrated with AA, or KK, even QQ with a. And I already explained how few non nut flushes are in his range. And the non 56hh hand is unlikely to fold.

    Only thing that makes sense is KQ. I still think that that hand should call your "acting" shove on turn.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I wasnt trying to put words in your mouth bart just trying to convey what I thought villain would think of the large raise.

  • BartBart Posts: 5,921AdministratorLeadPro
    edited March 2016
    Thehammah said:
    So to recap....


    If I were to raise I would have to basically bomb it like Bart suggested.. making it look like I have a flush that I am protecting..

    ww
    Thats what I was working off of. I just think with the small bet sizing on the turn put on your best frustrated face and make it look like you are going with it.. If he has KQ with the Q, I doubt he finds a fold. if he has Q 9× hes and idiot and he still might go with it.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I really need to try that. I am just worried that he is just mever calling the nitty girl.

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    I really need to try that. I am just worried that he is just mever calling the nitty girl.
    Just a quick note to continue re-evaluating your image. Yes you did showdown the nuts in this hand , but you also showed 78s that you raised with pre. Nits don't raise 78s preflop.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    chili

    that is a very good point. and main villain knows I do play those hands. *sigh*. I just need to own the nuts same way I value bet one pair.

    :???:
  • Jacklamb Posts: 561Subscriber
    I'd bet $150 on the turn. If he min-raises you to 300, I'd make it like $800 and shove the river. Bart's move is probably better shoving the turn and making it look like you're shipping it with something that's not the nuts. My problem with that is I feel like on this board you can get several hands to call you if you give some odds. The Q of hearts does not like folding here but if you shove he might be forced to. A set could also call a reraise to $750 or 800 thinking he is drawing out with odds.
  • pocket11s Posts: 138Subscriber
    Bart,

    Why can't V have A Q here? The games that I play in, people easily flat that hand there IP against tight opening ranges. Heck, he can even show up with A K here a non-zero % of the time IMO.

    Also, don't you think some players might see through the "putting on sour face/tanking" facade and actually consider it pretty strong?
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