Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

4 bet Pot, Line Check and river?? (Podcast 4/26/16)

BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
edited April 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
5/10 Commerce $1400 effective. Villain in hand is late 20s Asian unknown player, seems to have played relatively tight.

Folded to hero on the button who raises to $35 with A K. V1 3 bets to $165. Hero 4! to $375 trying to goad Sb to make a play. V1 calls relatively quickly.


$760 FLOP: J 7 8

Sb checks. Hero checks?

$760 TURN: Q

SB bets $400, Hero calls?

$1560 RIVER A

SB thinks for a while and finally

A. Checks (actually happened)

B. Moves all-in
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    edited April 2016
    Don't really understand what you're trying to 'goad' him into exactly?
    If he shoves over you 4! Based on his description you're behind and hoping to flip, so IMO pre is pretty bad, I'd much rather flat, keeping your range wider and with skill advantage and position play poker, as you could put a lot of pressure on him 140BB deep on a ton of boards vs his tight 3! Range.

    A) he's not paying off with KK, so check back
    B) if you call your chopping at best, so fold.
  • BlackBoxEquity Posts: 165Subscriber
    A. I put him on a very narrow range by the river, QQ-TT. When you call the turn, after 4-betting pre, your hand looks like AA-QQ to most players. He either has a set that he is worried will not get called by worse or TT, which is too weak to bet.
    3 combos of QQ, 3 combos of JJ, and 6 combos of TT; 50/50 split. I don't think the sets are folding if you shove for $625 more, so I would check back and hope you're good.

    B. Pot odds 2175:625 or 3.5:1; need to be good 22% of the time. I just don't think he is doing this with anything other than a set when the board is so high-card heavy/scary. Fold.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2016
    Letmewin1 said:
    Don't really understand what you're trying to 'goad' him into exactly?
    If he shoves over you 4! Based on his description you're behind and hoping to flip, so IMO pre is pretty bad, I'd much rather flat, keeping your range wider and with skill advantage and position play poker, as you could put a lot of pressure on him 140BB deep on a ton of boards vs his tight 3! Range.

    A) he's not paying off with KK, so check back
    B) if you call your chopping at best, so fold.
    There isn't any history. And lately I have seen some pretty wild things preflop from some of the younger guys at $5/$10 at the Commerce. I am happy to get it in here as I think that my 4 bet looks pretty polarized in a button v sb dynamic.

    From a theory prospective as well, if I am not 4 betting the button with AKs in this spot vs sb what hands am I 4 betting button...AA and KK..nothing?

    Also what tight 3 betting range?..this is button vs sb.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    edited April 2016
    Bart
    I understand BTN/SB dynamic as some 3!'s Could be on the lighter side, and I've 4! Lighter than AK in spots like these and some of the advanced players in this forum have done dozens of times BUT I'm sure it was done and should only be done based on profiling/ranges/info that we've acummilated over several SD's, what I am saying is that "seems to have played relatively tight" with no other info dynamic/level/meta between you/him I wouldn't think he's 'stealing' $35, IMHO you could as well flat your entire range as well if you think he's light, you don't really have to 4! KK+ or do you? and you could 4! Other hands if you think he's light, right?what I mean is that we can employ diff. Strats in certain spots/scenarios.

  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I like your line up to the river. I don't see a lot of fold equity on the turn when there are lots of sets and KK in his range, so calling turn bet seems best.

    A. If he checks river , I think we can actually make a really small value bet like "same bet" of $400 targeting KK or other worse 1 pair hands that he spazzed with pre.

    B. If he shoves river I think we can fold. He has showdown value almost 100% of the time, so it would be surprising and unusual to turn KK, KQs, etc into a bluff. Could he be value betting AK with a river shove ? It's possible, but that sizing is unlikely since it's tough to get called by worse on that board for a large sizing.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    edited April 2016
    4 betting is pretty mandatory in this spot IMO for many reasons. Snapping a shove.

    I think betting and checking flop are both fine. Good to mix it up and you can decided based off how you want to play your whole range. In a vacuum I think betting like 250-300 is more plus EV.


    Turn, I prefer a call, against certain people you can shove because it doesn't make much sense but they still don't have it in them to call with a weak hand but I think checking is better in general.

    River.

    Check: shoving, we can have some missed draws and I think we have the best hand like at least 80%+.

    All-in: much closer. I lean towards fold as i just don't think many people have it in them to bluff here. He can have, JJ, QQ, T9s, and KTs sometimes, AJ, AQ. Just too much that beats us and I don't think this spot gets bluffed enough

    *seems like you always have a reason for these multiple scenario questions, but sadly I haven't figured it out yet*
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    When the V checks, I think Hero should check behind. What worse hand will call a bet and what is the sizing? We are $625 effective on the river. I doubt KK calls, maybe AT if the bet is small enough.

    When the villain moves all in, I think Hero should snap fold. The is not likely to turn his hand into a bluff. Hero would have to be good about 30% of the time to call a shove, and I doubt we would be good 10% of the time.
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    chilidog said:
    I like your line up to the river. I don't see a lot of fold equity on the turn when there are lots of sets and KK in his range, so calling turn bet seems best.

    A. If he checks river , I think we can actually make a really small value bet like "same bet" of $400 targeting KK or other worse 1 pair hands that he spazzed with pre.

    B. If he shoves river I think we can fold. He has showdown value almost 100% of the time, so it would be surprising and unusual to turn KK, KQs, etc into a bluff. Could he be value betting AK with a river shove ? It's possible, but that sizing is unlikely since it's tough to get called by worse on that board for a large sizing.
    Agree with almost every thing expect A.. Do you really think he'd call with 99's 10's and K's on that card?

    And I truly doubt it's a spazz pre.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    stayinschool said:


    River.

    Check: shoving, we can have some missed draws and I think we have the best hand like at least 80%+.

    All-in: much closer. I lean towards fold as i just don't think many people have it in them to bluff here. He can have, JJ, QQ, T9s, and KTs sometimes, AJ, AQ. Just too much that beats us and I don't think this spot gets bluffed enough

    *
    To me this is incongruent. You advocate shoving if villain checks because we have the best hand 80% of the time. What hand calls that doesn't beat Hero? KK, TT, AT?

    But you advocate folding if villain shoves....? If we have the best hand 80% shouldn't this be a snap call?

  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    Arenzano said:
    stayinschool said:


    River.

    Check: shoving, we can have some missed draws and I think we have the best hand like at least 80%+.

    All-in: much closer. I lean towards fold as i just don't think many people have it in them to bluff here. He can have, JJ, QQ, T9s, and KTs sometimes, AJ, AQ. Just too much that beats us and I don't think this spot gets bluffed enough

    *
    To me this is incongruent. You advocate shoving if villain checks because we have the best hand 80% of the time. What hand calls that doesn't beat Hero? KK, TT, AT?

    But you advocate folding if villain shoves....? If we have the best hand 80% shouldn't this be a snap call?

    That thought isn't incongruent at all. Its paying attention to the betting action on river. A bet all-in means we are beaten and a check means we have the best hand. Obviously its debatable whether we can get called by worse but the logic is sound. Bart
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    @stayinschool
    Name 2 reasons why 4! Is better than flatting based on info provided.
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited April 2016
    A. Allin. two good things can happen. 1.) he folds AK 2.) he calls KK/ATs or a weaker blocker hand. I highly doubt he checks a better hand often enough to make a checkback superior.

    B. snapfold



    4b pre is purely dynamic/image/gameflow dependend. I think it's pointless to discuss if it's good or bad IN GENERAL.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    edited April 2016
    BlackBoxEquity said:
    A. I put him on a very narrow range by the river, QQ-TT. When you call the turn, after 4-betting pre, your hand looks like AA-QQ to most players. He either has a set that he is worried will not get called by worse or TT, which is too weak to bet.
    3 combos of QQ, 3 combos of JJ, and 6 combos of TT; 50/50 split. I don't think the sets are folding if you shove for $625 more, so I would check back and hope you're good.

    B. Pot odds 2175:625 or 3.5:1; need to be good 22% of the time. I just don't think he is doing this with anything other than a set when the board is so high-card heavy/scary. Fold.
    You think sets of Js and Qs are going to check the river given the pot size, action and remaining stacks? Maybe 1 out of the 6 combos, if that imo.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Letmewin1 said:
    @stayinschool
    Name 2 reasons why 4! Is better than flatting based on info provided.
    V is a younger player and in general the average 5/10 player is going to be 3 betting easily wide enough SB vs BB that 4 betting AK is very profitable. He can call our 4 bet with worse, he can shove with worse and its a very small range we are behind, which we also block.

    If we are are not 4 betting AK then what are we 4 betting? I'm fine with flatting sometimes for balance and actually think AKs is a good flat and AKo is a better 4 bet but I don't think that is what you are arguing.


    The read "relatively tight" over a very, very small sample is not nearly enough to merit not 4 betting AK in this spot. I could imagine a situation where flatting is more profitable, I don't think this is it, but even if that is the case that doesn't mean that 4 betting is -EV as a lot of people are suggesting.
  • fishcake Posts: 962Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    Letmewin1 said:
    @stayinschool
    Name 2 reasons why 4! Is better than flatting based on info provided.
    V is a younger player and in general the average 5/10 player is going to be 3 betting easily wide enough SB vs BB that 4 betting AK is very profitable. He can call our 4 bet with worse, he can shove with worse and its a very small range we are behind, which we also block.

    If we are are not 4 betting AK then what are we 4 betting? I'm fine with flatting sometimes for balance and actually think AKs is a good flat and AKo is a better 4 bet but I don't think that is what you are arguing.


    The read "relatively tight" over a very, very small sample is not nearly enough to merit not 4 betting AK in this spot. I could imagine a situation where flatting is more profitable, I don't think this is it, but even if that is the case that doesn't mean that 4 betting is -EV as a lot of people are suggesting.
    To you and Bart: why does it matter if we are only 4 betting KK and AA here? This is live poker. It certainly doesn't matter for balance whatsoever.

    A decent player should never be flatting a 4bet here oop with worse than AK. If they are then put me in these games. Him shoving worse is even more insane. That being said I don't think a 4bet is bad or -EV even given we have position and can win the hand unimproved against better hands. Which nobody mentioned.

    As played, I have a hard time believing villain is calling a 4bet oop with AK and playing it this way so I'd target KK and bet small on the river.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    Bart said:
    Arenzano said:
    stayinschool said:


    River.

    Check: shoving, we can have some missed draws and I think we have the best hand like at least 80%+.

    All-in: much closer. I lean towards fold as i just don't think many people have it in them to bluff here. He can have, JJ, QQ, T9s, and KTs sometimes, AJ, AQ. Just too much that beats us and I don't think this spot gets bluffed enough

    *
    To me this is incongruent. You advocate shoving if villain checks because we have the best hand 80% of the time. What hand calls that doesn't beat Hero? KK, TT, AT?

    But you advocate folding if villain shoves....? If we have the best hand 80% shouldn't this be a snap call?

    That thought isn't incongruent at all. Its paying attention to the betting action on river. A bet all-in means we are beaten and a check means we have the best hand. Obviously its debatable whether we can get called by worse but the logic is sound. Bart
    I agree that if V shoves it is a snap fold.

    But,

    If we have the best hand on the river when he checks why are we shoving? What does shoving accomplish? What worse hands call? What better hands fold?

    We chop with AK, so I guess that is one reason....
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Plenty of worse hands that put us on a bluff. If villain is folding so much then we should be bluffing 100% but I bet almost nobody is bluffing here often if at all. There is a huge gap IMO between how people bluff and how they value bet, you can't almost never bluff and almost never value bet. It just doesn't make sense. If villain shows you AT, KK, KQ would you try and bluff him? If not, and I bet a lot of people would not, then we should value bet. We don't make money in live poker, and poker in general, checking back such strong hands.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    Plenty of worse hands that put us on a bluff. If villain is folding so much then we should be bluffing 100% but I bet almost nobody is bluffing here often if at all. There is a huge gap IMO between how people bluff and how they value bet, you can't almost never bluff and almost never value bet. It just doesn't make sense. If villain shows you AT, KK, KQ would you try and bluff him? If not, and I bet a lot of people would not, then we should value bet. We don't make money in live poker, and poker in general, checking back such strong hands.
    How strong is our hand in this situation?

  • PocketAceTrader782 Posts: 439Subscriber
    If the V checks, I would move in for the last $625. You can possibly still get value from KK. I honestly think it's more likely that he has the same hand as you though in this spot.

    If he moves in, I think is range is more heavily weighted toward AQ or QQ. I would fold under that scenario.

    Carmine
    by 1Bart
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Arenzano said:
    stayinschool said:
    Plenty of worse hands that put us on a bluff. If villain is folding so much then we should be bluffing 100% but I bet almost nobody is bluffing here often if at all. There is a huge gap IMO between how people bluff and how they value bet, you can't almost never bluff and almost never value bet. It just doesn't make sense. If villain shows you AT, KK, KQ would you try and bluff him? If not, and I bet a lot of people would not, then we should value bet. We don't make money in live poker, and poker in general, checking back such strong hands.
    How strong is our hand in this situation?

    what does this mean? its pretty strong
Sign In or Register to comment.