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Bluff Catching vs Unknown..

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
edited April 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I have been playing around with some unorthodox lines lately since my regular playing pool at the Hustler knows me well. Ie I am putting in a little GTO in my game. Not a ton but a little just to see how that affects my win rate.

Hustler is a really nice comfy casino to play at. The food is good and the 5/5 games allow a buy in for $1000. So this attracts many better regs and pros who want to play 5/5 rather than 5/10..besides who wants to play and schlep to Commerce? So what happens in general is the Hustler games are tougher I would imagine than at other 2/5 games ..

since I know so many players in the player pool, I have been randomly deciding to check back second pair on a Q high board with say JJ when other better regs are in the pot.. I have also been check calling against their range when I am bluff catching with say top pair ok kicker.. all so far so good..

but can you also play a little coy/GTO with an unkown?

So I am playing $5/$5 and a player whose table just broke comes to my game. He seems middle eastern younger kid he is wearing sunglasses so I don't think he is a good player.. I am sure I seem to him the nitty white girl. I have just over $1100 and he has about the same. I have a neutral image in his eyes because this is the second hand he is playing..

I am two to his left and villain opens to 20 .. I am next to act and our table has been playing super nitty pre.. So I decided to play a little differently and just call with K K .. I know you are all thinking "wendy raise them coyboys!" but in my defense I would normally. I don't know this guy and he raised utg.. I think I get alot of folds.. because my table has been playing tight pre I am not likely to be in a 7 way pot..

So it folds around and I am heads up with the villain.. pot $40..

Flop A J T he checks and I don't think there is much value in betting here I check..

Turn 3 he bets.. $60.. I think I am good here often enough to call. I also have a very well hidden gutter.. I call. pot $160

River 3 he checks .. so now I am pretty sure I have the best hand. He can have a weak ace but I think thats pretty much the best he can have.. So I decide to bet $60 to get some thin value from a jack.. he tanks for a moment and then raises to $215..

now this line to me makes no sense.. he doesnt know me.. he has no idea I can thin value bet.. I bet small to get called by a jack.. does he somehow think I am weaker and therefore trying to bluff me? Can he have a full house? sure..but not likely.. can he have a 3? sure but again he would have to have raised with a 3 AND bet it on the turn AND now check raise me on the river..

hero?

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Comments

  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Normally versus an unknown I find a fold on this river as even though he is not credibly repping a thing, river x-raises aren't often bluffs. That said, your river bet smells of thin value or a weak hand in general. Couple that with 'young brown guy with sunglasses' and I see FPS written over this.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Rocketman74 said:
    Normally versus an unknown I find a fold on this river as even though he is not credibly repping a thing, river x-raises aren't often bluffs. That said, your river bet smells of thin value or a weak hand in general. Couple that with 'young brown guy with sunglasses' and I see FPS written over this.
    lol...true..so true... that said.. I still think its worth discussion because I am seeing a pattern here that I wanted to explore for possible ways of exploiting.. :wink:
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    First I think saying you are adding balance to your game is much better than adding GTO. I really recommend listening to Doug polk's interview on UTG from yesterday on balance.

    I would also check JJ on a Q high flops but not for balance just because I think it is a better play. Aside from some thin value and a tinny bit of protection I don't see much point in betting JJ in those spots. You can always get thin value later and induce some bluffs along the way.

    Hand in question:

    In terms of the call with KK i don't love it. First I think you are probably overestimating your image. This guy is new to the table, seems like guy that would want to gamble. Just go for value. Also, if your image is actually so tight you can't get enough action 3 betting then I bet you are not taking enough advantage of it by 3 betting light.

    Flop: Think checking is by far best

    Turn: Easy call although I'm not sure how we have a "Well hidden gutter"

    River: Bet is fine. I'd probably call against described villain but folding is also fine. We do have some better hands here. Probably 2 combos of A3s for nutted hands and we should also have some weaker Ax that we checked flop with.

    Overall my call here would be more based on the fact that villain seems like the type to run a weird bluff and his line makes no sense as opposed to calling for some form of balance. This isn't the top of your range and while it isn't a bad hand to call with due to blockers I think folding is usually fine.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    I havent had a chance to listen to Davids podcast and I look forward to it. I can absolutely be using GTO incorrectly.. As far as overestimating my image.. I could be for sure.. that said I dont think so very often..

    So with all of this mixing it up I am experimenting in situations that actually might induce a player to try to bluff me/value own themselves.. with a much higher frequency... I double barrel and often get many players when heads up to fold. So if I play in a different manor on different boards with say single pair hands can I elicit more value by confusing them from what would be a standard play..

    This is the same thought process with the guy last week who checked raised me when I 3 bet him but checked back the AKK board when I had AQ.. It like giving certain players the green light to try and bluff the weak tight white girl..


    ww
  • boredoo Posts: 221Subscriber
    He knows you don't have an A. His range has some weak Aces in it, but is he good enough to induce here to get some very thin value with an A knowing you're never checking flop with a big A?

    Calling $150 to win $435. Only have to be good like 1/4 of the time to break even. I think you can probably call. He might do this with any J trying to get you off chop. He might have a combo or two of QQ. He might have total air and knows enough to know you're strong so thinks raising almost 4x your river bet size will get you to fold most of your range. Not sure what to make of his table presence, those guys can be FPS donks or nits, never quite figured it out.

    Seems close. Interested to see what happened.
  • DuDot Posts: 97SubscriberProfessional
    boredoo, I think he's almost never doing this w/QQ or a jack.

    Without more info on this guy I think you're beat on this river check raise as they are so rarely bluffs. I'd fold but I don't think it's a huge EV difference to call. His line does look bluffy and if you've seen that behavior out of him I'd lean toward a call.

    In early position I'd 3bet this preflop. I think you lose too much value with a call. If you are looking to change it up I'd consider calling with this hand in late position headsup vs a regular.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Young ethnic guy with sunglasses takes a non-sensical line of x, overbet pot, x/r river. I'm calling.
    (And then insta-tabling my KK when he says "good call", only to have him turn over A8 suited ftw).
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    DuDot said:
    boredoo, I think he's almost never doing this w/QQ or a jack.

    Without more info on this guy I think you're beat on this river check raise as they are so rarely bluffs. I'd fold but I don't think it's a huge EV difference to call. His line does look bluffy and if you've seen that behavior out of him I'd lean toward a call.

    In early position I'd 3bet this preflop. I think you lose too much value with a call. If you are looking to change it up I'd consider calling with this hand in late position headsup vs a regular.
    DuDot

    so nice when you post.. hows philly??

    anyways.. I agree with you in most situations. This table was uber nitty. I felt that I had a really good chance of getting this heads up or at worse with maybe one more player.. NO ONE would think I am this strong by doing this.. EVER.. in a more normal looser flopitis game I am raising with a really high frequency. In fact i was at a game like that when I first got to the casino.. There I made a huge 3 bet with AA and got AK to shove against me for $500.. so I have been trying to change my standard play not just based on my position and image but other things.. And in this case with the table playing so tight I decided to just flat ..


  • ZacharyFreeman Posts: 29Member
    The guys often bluffing. But he might have Ax trying to push out a chop.
  • GhostDogGhostDog Posts: 328Subscriber
    *Grunch*

    What is he checking flop with that check raises river for value? We block KQ and wouldn't every other value hand bet that flop?

    Also doesn't our bet look weak as eff? Couldn't that on its own cause villain to bluff us here?

    I think our bet caused this and therefore we should be at least calling a good percentage of the time. But here is something I'm curious to here everyone's thoughts on, can we raise flood for value here? I mean can we click it back to $370-$400 and get called by a J. Granted we'll fold out most hands that we have beat but isn't there also some merit in not having to show down? And then fold to a ship because no one is 4bet bluffing here.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    BTW, Hammah I love that you're trying new things and being creative.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 1,989SubscriberProfessional
    I can literally come up with one hand that might play this way, and that's 33, and even that is a bit of a stretch. Nothing else makes any sense. When that's the case, I have a tendency to call, especially when getting 3:1, and always am shown some bizarre hand that has me beat. I think this is close, and wouldn't fault you either way.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    GhostDog said:
    *Grunch*

    What is he checking flop with that check raises river for value? We block KQ and wouldn't every other value hand bet that flop?

    Also doesn't our bet look weak as eff? Couldn't that on its own cause villain to bluff us here?

    I think our bet caused this and therefore we should be at least calling a good percentage of the time. But here is something I'm curious to here everyone's thoughts on, can we raise flood for value here? I mean can we click it back to $370-$400 and get called by a J. Granted we'll fold out most hands that we have beat but isn't there also some merit in not having to show down? And then fold to a ship because no one is 4bet bluffing here.

    Anyway, just a thought.

    BTW, Hammah I love that you're trying new things and being creative.
    Thanks GD!!! I always try to improve and downswings are always a good kick in the ass to try new things.. Your thoughts on the hand was exactly what I was thinking about.. EXCEPT the reraise on the river.. First if he thought we were weak he might rebluff us although that is rather unlikely. Another thought is he might be thinking hes bluffing with a better hand..like a weak ace.. so all in all I dont think re-raising is a good idea..

    ww
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    Go down a check list like I do. And yes being a woman definitely affects things for some people. I would lean on a middle eastern fish has less respect than normal for a woman. Which could mean he is bluffing.

    His line can be a bluff but can also be one of the following hands.

    KQ would play exactly like this. Check flop, overbet turn fearing FD, CR river for value/frustration the board paired. Yes I have seen people react like this.

    Or he could see you as weak the way you played the hand and is trying to rep a boat here. Because you are a woman and he is a M.E. player with glasses that potentially might look down on women it leans on a bluff.

    Unknown vs unknown generally don't bluff each other.

    you are almost getting 3:1 here. Calling and losing shows him you won't be pushed around and you get to see his hand gaining valuable information on a fish's play style. Folding might mean it reinforces his bluffing frequency.

    You can also take what the average fishy M.E. player does at this casino and weigh that action vs this guy.

    Now with all this you NOW apply physical tells and replay them in your hand. Make a decision.

    As for playing differently? Here I wouldn't. He is an unknown that seems like a fish. If he doesn't know me I can lean on he will call the 3b OOP with all sorts of crap and you can get value from him.

    But vs specific players in which you know well playing a hand in a different style can certainly be more profitable. I wish I could recite the 1st paragraph in the Theory of Poker. It says it perfectly.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    ok so I didnt think his line made any sense with the exception of maybe a full house so I called he he showed J T

    lol.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    ZacharyFreeman said:
    The guys often bluffing. But he might have Ax trying to push out a chop.
    Zach-
    Do u think this player profile is thinking in that way? I don't normally see that concept applied by this player type very often if ever. So much more likely for him to be bluffing with an ace (but not doing it to push ww off a chop), or some other hand with show down value like QJ.

  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,298Subscriber
    So a frustration CR it was lol. Good call.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Fuzzypup said:
    So a frustration CR it was lol. Good call.
    I dont think it was necessarily a frustration raise. I think he prob thought my small sizing was a weak hand that he thought he could get to fold. maybe a little fristration that he got counterfeited .

    one thing I do think in the last 6 mos that I havent been doing well is allowing the type of players that might try to bluff to let them hang themselves.

    for a player like me white female I think there are types of players like this guy who will try to bluff me. I have been betting so much I am just getting then to fold.
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