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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
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Hopped up to $10-$20 Value own line? (Podcast 5/3/16)

2

Comments

  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    edited May 2016
    Is the vast majority of my X/call range on flop AK/AQ? What about 88+? All the overpairs to the board that I don't 4 bet pre also would seem to take this X/call, X/turn line.

    Also I'm not sure how often I am calling pre with AQos.

    BTW if I did have AK I probably would take the same line as I did with 99.

    Thanks for posting Zach.

    Bart
  • ActionTwin Posts: 146SubscriberProfessional
    Bart said:
    I checked on the river and he bet $1000. Whats the play now?

    Bart
    Some math and a couple things to consider in your raise sizing...

    If you make it $2,750 this will give him 3-1 to make the call.

    Or you could just shove for $3,200. This would give him 2.6-1.

    ...although he may think he is calling for (at best) a chop with AK if he assumes you are never bluffing. So if he thinks this (and if my math is correct)...

    His real odds would be 1-1 if you make it $2,750 (calling $1,750 to win $1,750). So he would need to think it'd be a chop 50% of the time.

    If you jam for $3,200 he would now be laying odds to make the call (1.26-1 or $2,200 to win $1,750) so he would need to be chopping 55% of the time. However a shove may look more convincing that you are trying to blow him off the hand so a shove may be best.

    I guess it depends if you think he is thinking on this type of math level.
  • MrSpecial Posts: 330Subscriber
    in the 4k neighborhood
    Hero has 3900 to start with, with out the 1000 on the river, he has 3200 left.

    I prefer a shove over the min raise, since any hand that calls the min raise will call 1k more.

    The problem I have now, though, I have a hard time coming up with hands that can call.

    Not to say we shouldn't raise in theory, effectively V can't call with any PP and even AK, or Ax for that matter, as it obviously is such a big part of his range, and he is aware of Hero being aware of this, it makes Heros raise on the river so strong. Therefore any A is a clear fold.

    If this is the case, which hands can Call here?

    His best hope is to split with AK and maybe that's what we can hope to get a crying call from.

    But in reality I prefer leading the river for a pot or slightly over pot sized bet, in order to get called by worse hands rather than putting ourselves in a spot to only get called by the one hand that beats us here, AA.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    aaron said:
    iamallin said:
    I would bet this turn. He is not going to continue bluffing with A highs. His bluffs on the turn are draws only. Also we are repping so few value hands with a donk bet on tun, that I like it when we do have one of these very few value hands. Because we rep so narrow he is never folding a good value hand on turn.



    We raise pre, call a 3b w/ a whale behind, and donk turn. How are we repping few value hands? I think this line reeks of value. If we donk turn we fold out the majority of bluffs of which a 10/20 pro is going to have a ton of. When this guy has some random air hand like K8s or A high you think he's just giving up here all the time? Obv player dependent but I think this is a good board to triple given the presence of draws and a strong range advantage.

    River play seems like a cr is best to both keep in bluffs and get value from Ax. This card is not good for our range and since we are pretty readless we should be taking a more balanced approach here and checking. As an aside this could be a cool spot to overbet a hand like TT/JJ if we get to the river like this.
    Why would we ever overbet a hand like TT or JJ here? We have much better hands to bluff with.
    Bc JJ/TT is going to rarely win at showdown outside of his total air. It's best to do it w/ no s in our hand as well. Cr bluff w that hand may be the better play. What hands are better for us to bluff w? We don't show up on river w any pure no showdown bluffs outside of a rare missed fd. We can debate this later since off topic but found the spot interesting.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    ZacharyFreeman said:
    The flop check should be done with this hand quite often. It allows a)him to put pressure on your range checking range which is most often AQ, AK, etc. b) it allows him to catch up by making 2nd best hand with KQs JTs etc.
    Turn check once we check is best. Its consistent with the bluff catching portions of our range , AK, AQ.
    River I would lead. I would lead for the following reasons. The vast majority of your xc flop, turn xx range is going to be AK, AQ. On this river your range is now far ahead of his so we can't expect him to continue his bluffs much nor will he value bet any hand worse than AX. We have so few bluffs in this spot that our sizing should be small. It allows him to hero lighter. He is unlikely to bluff raise given he capped his range checking the turn but he has an easy value raise with AK.
    As played, I would xr in the 4k neighborhood.
    Good analysis Zach.

    Why do you say the vast majority of our x/c flop, x/x turn range is AK/AQ? Don't we also have 77/88/TT/JJ here? Ax is 24 combos and pairs 77-JJ are 24 combos. Also are we always calling w AQ in this spot? V did 3b w/ a whale in between which should strengthen his standard 3b range I would think. By checking river I would think we're protecting the bluff catching portion of our range as well (not that we should necessarily play balanced but...).

    Also you say his range is capped. The way I see it he's rarely going to have an overpair here although maybe the average 10/20 reg is checking back TT-QQ on turn. If we deduce he rarely has an overpair then his range, I would think, is heavily favored towards Ax w/ some air. Given these assumptions, wouldn't this river favor his bet flop/check turn range over ours? Or do we assume he's not betting Ax on this flop (I would think multiway he is at a high %).

  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    Snap shove. Accept that you will sometimes get snapped by weak tightly played aa.
    Accept that some nitty players will fold ak to your shove.

    Accpe it all and shove anyway. Cause some things in life are about more than money. It's about making a statement. That you can't control the pot against bart. That bart controls the pot against you.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    I really dont think that when villain bets the flop that he has alot of aces in his range. The better the player he is the more likely he is going to check back a decent ace on the flop no?

    So when the ace hits the river I am not sure what betting will accomplish other than to prevent him from bluffing the river with a hand like KQ suited or other high broadway hands he might have 3 bet with.

    that said I respectfully disagree with Zach on the check on the flop.. If this guy seems like he might make a move you are much more likely to get a float or a move if you bet that flop.. sure you range is less bluffy ..but it also looks like either top pair or a small overpair..

    If villain is like other young pros he would probably read this as such and he is either just going to fold but he also might try to take the pot away later in the hand because he is in position.

    as played I do like the check on the river giving him a chance to bluff at the pot by repping the ace.. that said .. I think a small raise is in order to get heroed by an ace since I dont think you are getting called by much else.. I might even just call the bet if I felt that he is NEVER calling my raise..but given we dont know villain we cant know that..

    if he ships over our min raise.. I am really throwing up..

    ww
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    About check/minraising river: is this due to arrogance thinking everyone is worse than we are or do you think everyone is moneyscared and pays off 'cos of odds' not using his brain...?

    Of course there can be levelling wars going on but this is unknown vs unknown so there is I guess a ZERO % chance a minraise is a bluff. If we ever bluff we would make it at least like 2.7x but most likely go allin

    So please do yourself a favor and don't ever minraise against a player who seems to know the rules of the game....

    Just change the roles and think about what you would rather call off...

    Hope my tone isn't inaccurat
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Same goes for leading flop....this is not just bad in a vaccume but will absolutely destroy us in such spots in the future if he sees us leading 99 here
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    maphacks said:
    Same goes for leading flop....this is not just bad in a vaccume but will absolutely destroy us in such spots in the future if he sees us leading 99 here
    this is the first time Bart has seen this guy. He can tell us if he looked like the guy was just coming through to LA for the state championship series on his way to the wsop. And if he is I doubt Bart will ever be in this situation with this guy again.

    Only regs might be able to take advantage of this..but you can still have an exploitable line if they start folding to much to your leads .. you can now bluff more ..

    Of the times even against what I thought were the better players..they just wont fold.. the trick is the sizing.. if you bomb your bet yeah you will get folds.. but if you bet like you can still have bluffs/semibluffs/thin value then you will get called down.. Then that Ace is just so perfect to put in a check raise..

    If you did bet bet check raise you have very few bluffs in that line.. for sure.. but I still think its the best way to make the most against a player who is aware and a thinking player..

    ww
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I don't think balance should be a concern regarding our river action here. The villain is unknown to us, with little to no history, and we are playing a game that is not our typical game.

    I like a large river bet at pot or a bit more (I was thinking 1750), targeting the strong Ax that he slowed down with on the turn. This seems like we can rep a bluff (missed FD or pocket pair) a little bit better than a river x/r and seems much more likely to get called than the conditional actions of : 1) villain betting the river , and 2) villain calling a river check/raise.

    As played, I think a standard raise to $2500 is fine.
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    ZacharyFreeman said:
    The flop check should be done with this hand quite often. It allows a)him to put pressure on your range checking range which is most often AQ, AK, etc. b) it allows him to catch up by making 2nd best hand with KQs JTs etc.
    Turn check once we check is best. Its consistent with the bluff catching portions of our range , AK, AQ.
    River I would lead. I would lead for the following reasons. The vast majority of your xc flop, turn xx range is going to be AK, AQ. On this river your range is now far ahead of his so we can't expect him to continue his bluffs much nor will he value bet any hand worse than AX. We have so few bluffs in this spot that our sizing should be small. It allows him to hero lighter. He is unlikely to bluff raise given he capped his range checking the turn but he has an easy value raise with AK.
    As played, I would xr in the 4k neighborhood.
    Isn't it reasonable to construct an overbet range here given the range advantage we have on the river. It can include our bluffs, monsters and even some AK making him possibly fold chops ? It let's us bluff and puts him in crappy spot a lot. It is also nice that we don't block any A with our value hands. We can ✔️ call some other hands including AQ and some AK as well. Our range isn't all AQ, AK we also have pairs with a ♠️ I think.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    For everyone who is saying that the Villain won't call a check raise at the end with an ace, why are we then always not turning a pocket pair into a bluff with a check raise on the river in this exact situation which is quite common? (Situation is opening and calling a 3 bet with a pair, check calling flop on ragged board, turn getting checked through on rag, and river being an Ace or a king).
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    We should be. In fact it is a very powerful tool when playing oop against opponents who like to control the pot on earlier streets. Punish them hard for taking weak tourney style pot control lines. Make them increase their variance by calling off big river check raises with top pair. And you will see what they are made of. I think this move is mentioned in the let there be range book by tri
  • MrSpecial Posts: 330Subscriber
    Bart said:
    For everyone who is saying that the Villain won't call a check raise at the end with an ace, why are we then always not turning a pocket pair into a bluff with a check raise on the river in this exact situation which is quite common? (Situation is opening and calling a 3 bet with a pair, check calling flop on ragged board, turn getting checked through on rag, and river being an Ace or a king).
    Because often we don't have the guts. But as you already pointed out with your A7 example the other week, there are so many good situations to attack. I am not sure you were intending this, but it seems so.

    What would you do, Bart, if you played AK and got to the river and get check raised by a good, solid player?
  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    MrSpecial said:
    Bart said:
    For everyone who is saying that the Villain won't call a check raise at the end with an ace, why are we then always not turning a pocket pair into a bluff with a check raise on the river in this exact situation which is quite common? (Situation is opening and calling a 3 bet with a pair, check calling flop on ragged board, turn getting checked through on rag, and river being an Ace or a king).
    Because often we don't have the guts. But as you already pointed out with your A7 example the other week, there are so many good situations to attack. I am not sure you were intending this, but it seems so.

    What would you do, Bart, if you played AK and got to the river and get check raised by a good, solid player?
    Not sure. It would depend on who it its, the gameflow and the situation.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    I really dont think that when villain bets the flop that he has alot of aces in his range. The better the player he is the more likely he is going to check back a decent ace on the flop no?

    ww
    Not sure why you think Ax wouldn't bet the flop in this spot? There are many reasons for Ax to bet here including: Protection, bluff, value, setting up barrel, etc. This is a top notch cbetting board so you're going to get money in the pot a lot more often vs a cbet than a donk. If you donk then a lot of air will fold and maybe once in a while you'll get floated. If you check then all of the air that floated you plus a major part of the air that would fold are going to put in a bet. Unless you have some crazy dynamic/history with someone and feel a bet is going to get more money in the pot I don't understand this argument.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,089Subscriber
    aaron said:
    Thehammah said:
    I really dont think that when villain bets the flop that he has alot of aces in his range. The better the player he is the more likely he is going to check back a decent ace on the flop no?

    ww
    Not sure why you think Ax wouldn't bet the flop in this spot? There are many reasons for Ax to bet here including: Protection, bluff, value, setting up barrel, etc. This is a top notch cbetting board so you're going to get money in the pot a lot more often vs a cbet than a donk. If you donk then a lot of air will fold and maybe once in a while you'll get floated. If you check then all of the air that floated you plus a major part of the air that would fold are going to put in a bet. Unless you have some crazy dynamic/history with someone and feel a bet is going to get more money in the pot I don't understand this argument.
    The board is paired.. but the pot was also 3 bet.. so after I posted this I started to think if I had 3 bet with AK would I bet the flop?

    The higher the frequency he would be an ace the more likely I would want to lead big on the river to get looked up. We dont know that this guy would bet the river or call a check raise.. Until I knew more I would lead if I thought he had alot of aces..

    ww
  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    This hand was covered on the podcast this week. As the third hand.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    aaron said:
    Thehammah said:
    I really dont think that when villain bets the flop that he has alot of aces in his range. The better the player he is the more likely he is going to check back a decent ace on the flop no?

    ww
    Not sure why you think Ax wouldn't bet the flop in this spot? There are many reasons for Ax to bet here including: Protection, bluff, value, setting up barrel, etc. This is a top notch cbetting board so you're going to get money in the pot a lot more often vs a cbet than a donk. If you donk then a lot of air will fold and maybe once in a while you'll get floated. If you check then all of the air that floated you plus a major part of the air that would fold are going to put in a bet. Unless you have some crazy dynamic/history with someone and feel a bet is going to get more money in the pot I don't understand this argument.
    The board is paired.. but the pot was also 3 bet.. so after I posted this I started to think if I had 3 bet with AK would I bet the flop?

    The higher the frequency he would be an ace the more likely I would want to lead big on the river to get looked up. We dont know that this guy would bet the river or call a check raise.. Until I knew more I would lead if I thought he had alot of aces..

    ww
    Talking about flop play not river. You talked about leading flop to induce a play
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