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The Grind Poker Podcast No.8: Touching on Leveling and a Little GTO

Craig Posts: 756Administrator
Rob Farha talks a little bit about the pitfalls of leveling, including a KK preflop fold. He also gives his take on "GTO" and how it applies to live poker.

Episode post at 11AM PT.

http://www.crushlivepoker.com/podcasts/touching-on-leveling-and-a-little-gto
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Comments

  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    Your podcast is incredibly thoughtful. Thank you.

    One point is that GTO the phrase is commonly misused in poker. GTO play multiway is collusive, so generally there is only optimal, balanced play. There are also often many similar balanced strategies of similar expected value, so the actual best optimal strategy, usually referred to as "GTO", may not be critically important. As you say this "GTO" is usually unknowable but the principles still often apply in constructing effective strategies.

    More importantly, Game Theory Optimal approaches insist that one switches over to a totally exploitive strategy if the Villain(s) are themselves unbalanced. For example,
    they call too much in a given spot then we never bluff, and so on. So playing exploitively is integral to optimal play not a separate strategy.

    I explain this in an Two Plus Two magazine article in the introduction.
    http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/issue134/brian-space-over-betting.php

    Thank you again for your excellent work.

    Brian
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    The KK hand is very close. Mostly because I think a good player is only going to have a cold 4 betting range from the SB and no flatting range. Lets give the rec only QQ+ AK, maybe mix in a few combos of JJ and AQs given post flop action. I still think that SB is going to be cold 4 betting wider than AA. Even if he is only QQ+AK or only KK+ with maybe half the combos QQ and AK I think we still have to get it in. I think if this went nitty rec 3 bet, nitty rec 4 bet we can fold because a rec will not 4 bet QQ or AK or even KK they will usually just call. However, given that SB is a good player it is very possible he is only cold 4 betting or folding there and I think that widens his range a bit. We are also still 20% against AA with some overlay right now and possibly more if both players call and both our Ks are still live. Calling may also be an options although i'm not really sure. Part of the problem is even if someone has QQ in the exact situation it isn't 100% we get it in with them by shoving or calling.

    I know this isn't a strategy podcast but I love these pre flop spots so I wanted to post about it haha. I'm not trashing the fold BTW I think it is very, very close. The true perfect answer is probably folding KK some % and going with it the rest of the time. It does seem likely that someone has AA so getting it in with all KK may be too loose but I don't think someone always has AA.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    In terms of the GTO thing I still think GTO is the wrong term. Nobody is close to GTO right now so I feel like balance is a much better term and one that is much more relevant to today.

    Either way, GTO or balance both can include making what are considered "exploitable folds" If you know someone always has AA or the nut flush you can fold KK or the second nut flush every time and be playing perfectly balanced. Balanced is just the idea that we are often confronted with incomplete information in poker so we have to make our best guess at what the best play is. However, since we can't really know if our guess is right we should still make the opposite play sometimes for balance. Say someone bets river and you guess or think that he is bluffing. Some people just say, "I think he is bluffing" and call with every hand. While this seems reasonable on the surface we can't be sure our guess is right. Even if we are right 90% of the time we still can't call 100% of the time. This is basically when you use balance. When you are comforted with incomplete information. However, if you find yourself in the rare spot where you have complete, or very close to complete information, then you can ignore balance and just make a decision based of that information. So if you have played 1000+ hours with some guy and never seen him bluff and he has even told you several times that he just never bluffs. So later when you are in a hand together he 3 bets river when you have the second nut flush then you can fold 100%, even in a balanced strategy because we have complete, or basically complete, information. I guess you can argue we should call some super tinny % just in case he decided to go crazy on this specific day but that isn't worth talking about.

    Overall, playing balanced and playing exploitably are really the same thing. In my opinion balanced play is just a slightly better version where you acknowledge that your assumptions and exploitable plays will not always be correct. We can still play very exploitatively in a balanced strategy, we just have to have that small safety net in case we are wrong.
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    edited May 2016
    stayinschool said:
    The KK hand is very close. Mostly because I think a good player is only going to have a cold 4 betting range from the SB and no flatting range. Lets give the rec only QQ+ AK, maybe mix in a few combos of JJ and AQs given post flop action. I still think that SB is going to be cold 4 betting wider than AA. Even if he is only QQ+AK or only KK+ with maybe half the combos QQ and AK I think we still have to get it in.
    I'm deeper with the tight guy IP (1k-1100ish), good reg in SB has 500ish.

    Board ran out like, Q42Q and turn got folded by rec guy. I'd remove AQs given postflop action :)

    I do not think this guy would be 3betting my EP raise with AQs.

    I agree, this isn't something I felt great about. Would be getting it in some % of the time for sure, but to 4bet to around 250 (the minimum) and fold to the rec's shove feels very gross. Getting in 200bb pre in that spot is pretty bad vs this guy imo.

    I also think that if this good guy in the SB has a hand worse than KK, he'll fold to my 5bet.

    Calling the 175 just seems pretty weird also, also I could see arguments for it.

    It was a very interesting situation. I'm confident what I did was correct though :)
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Yes my point with the AQs is that due to post he probably has some JJ type hand that could include some AQs in his range pre. I didn't mean the exact spot since AQ obviously isnt folying post haha. I do think I am leaning toward fold now but I would be interested to see if anyone did, or has done, the math on calling.
  • RobFarha Posts: 191Pro
    stayinschool said:
    Yes my point with the AQs is that due to post he probably has some JJ type hand that could include some AQs in his range pre. I didn't mean the exact spot since AQ obviously isnt folying post haha. I do think I am leaning toward fold now but I would be interested to see if anyone did, or has done, the math on calling.
    Oh right, I understand your point now (misread it initially) although I disagree that this guy would be 3betting AQs at any reasonable frequency in these positions.

    I actually think given the results of the hand + my blockers that sb has AA/KK(1combo)/QQ(1combo) and that rec guy had either AK/JJ.

    I knew this hand would spark a little discussion. One of those spots where all 3 options seem terrible for me.
  • RizenRizen Posts: 58Subscriber
    Rob, how does one eat healthy on the strip?
    When I travel I like to go straight to the grocery store to stock up on fruits and veggies and nuts. Doubt there's any groceries close as the casinos want you to eat in their restaurants.
    If I'm staying in the strip I'm not planning on a rental car, or should I ?
    Thank you
    by 1Aldune

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