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Plo fold or shove turn. 1/2

eyehaityou Posts: 288Member
1/2$ Omaha DC. Plo round. 300$ effective. Hero bad image, barley won a pot all night

Sb villan1 low level player. Relatively fit or fold

Middle position villan2 holdem player. Also pretty fit or fold but can hand read, knows relative hand strength, and other basic concepts.

Hero with 5$ button straddle. Villan1 raise to 15$, villan2 flats, hero defends with Ac3c78.

Flop 9cTc3s. (45$)

Villan1 leads for 45$, villan2 flats.
99% sure villan1 has TT /99 here. Villan2 probably a wrap JQKA ect. Hero calls.

Turn Ah. (175$ after rake)

Villan1 leads for 100$, villan2 calls, hero?
About 240$ behind.
I thought about shoving to isolate villan1. If villan2 folds I think it cleans up hero's straight outs. Would shoving here be a spew or can we realistically ever get villan2 off there hand if they have a huge wrap on the turn? Should we just fold turn, can't see folding flop.
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Comments

  • McCallister Posts: 6Subscriber
    a fold is totally out of question. you get the direct odds to call. you have 12 nutouts. 9*clubs +3*6 i'de shove. Also the A, J or 3might be good.
    would V1 really bet so low with 99 TT on the turn? As played i would just shove it on the turn
  • eyehaityou Posts: 288Member
    If my reads are correct with the hands we are up against (I was)does a call=shove in terms of our equity or is shove better just because we may get a villain to fold incorrectly?

    I felt like a call was better because I can save a bet on a river brick vs villans ranges, although I probably call off on a os J and lose to a higher straight, which is also what happened BTW.
  • AJoff Posts: 546Subscriber
    edited June 2016
    Why would we do anything other than call if we have some sort of live read that V1 only has top or middle set on the flop. You want the other player in for implied odds.
  • eyehaityou Posts: 288Member
    Talking about the turn play mostly. Was just curious if anyone felt shoving was better than calling and if so why. I think we pick up a huge amount of equity if Villan folds a dominating draw.
    However with a crappy image I didn't think hero had any FE, but the shove may be worth it just because it gives Villan a chance to fold incorrectly. My thought process here.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,308Pro
    Shoving gets better if you think they could also have hands like 9T and will call. I prefer raising flop against most villains. Even if their range is only 99 and TT, which seems narrow, do they fold 99?
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    So I'm going to address something you didn't ask about, but I think it bears mentioning.
    Hero with 5$ button straddle. Villan1 raise to 15$, villan2 flats, hero defends with A 3 7 8
    I think this is a fold preflop. Your card combos are:

    A 3
    A 7
    A 8
    3 7
    3 8
    7 8

    You're going to make a lot of two pairs that are no good, and straights that are not nut straights. I'm not sure if a call preflop is profitable in PLO.
  • eyehaityou Posts: 288Member
    edited June 2016
    Definitely an arguable call. Suited ace in position. I obviously have to flop the nfd, and then turn outs to AAA full to even get in this spot. My standard play IS to defend with a suited ace, planning to play pretty fit/fold post flop. Folding pre seems too tight but you may be correct here. Probably somewhat villan dependant as well, I imagine villan1 stacks off with top set if I hit my flush on the turn/river. Villan2 is rarely getting it in bad though.

    My equity hovers around 30%\31% vs top 25% and 35% of hands. I think having position makes this call neutral Ev. I don't think either a fold or call is terrible
  • MSK Posts: 53Subscriber
    not sure if you use "defend" correctly or if my understanding of what it means is wrong. Defending is usually used in the context of a late position open vs our blinds, so typically heads up. Not sure a SB raise vs your button stradde with a caller in the middle needs "defending".

    having said that, with bad image it's a fold pre (was button straddle mandatory? I wouldn't straddle the btn with losing image), a squeeze some % of the time with a winning image and a call some % with neutral image vs bad players.

    As played and your read being correct, both Vs will call if you raise turn which is great for you so I would get it all in ott.
  • khalwatkhalwat Posts: 997Subscriber
    So someone has to
    eyehaityou said:
    Definitely an arguable call. Suited ace in position. I obviously have to flop the nfd, and then turn outs to AAA full to even get in this spot. My standard play IS to defend with a suited ace, planning to play pretty fit/fold post flop. Folding pre seems too tight but you may be correct here. Probably somewhat villan dependant as well, I imagine villan1 stacks off with top set if I hit my flush on the turn/river. Villan2 is rarely getting it in bad though.

    My equity hovers around 30%\31% vs top 25% and 35% of hands. I think having position makes this call neutral Ev. I don't think either a fold or call is terrible
    The problem in PLO often isn't your actual hot and cold equity, it's the playability of your hand. This hand has little playability, and combine your poor image at the table... eh, I don't like it.

    You could argue that you'd play fit or fold with any hand. That wouldn't make it profitable to call with 100% of hands.
  • eyehaityou Posts: 288Member
    All true, I'm not saying a call is the correct play. I wouldn't post the hand if I wasn't looking for feedback.
    Would you play 6789ss or 9TJQos in this situation ? Same relative equity(+-2%),some better playability.
    How wide would you play the button, given a poor image and shallow 150bb?



  • High__Rolla Posts: 765Subscriber
    I'd call pre-flop with that hand getting those odds in position for four streets against a "fit or fold player" and "a holdem player." It's different against savvy competition. If you can hand read well, then you should be able to win some pots using your position regardless of your 4 cards. For example, it checks to you on 665 flop, you can stab at the pot or a monotone board that no one has shown any interest by the turn.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,145Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    If villain 2 has a high wrap, then shipping to get villain 2 out of the hand only cleans up 2 outs (the two non-club Js that are left) for you. All of your other outs (all sixes, all clubs save 3c, and likely the other two aces) are live vs. both opponents, so "shoving to get villain 2 out" is basically irrelevant.

    Not to mention, by the time the action gets back to villain 2, it will be like $755, $140 for him to call. WTF do you expect him to fold given those pot odds? If it was ever strategically correct to get villain 2 out of the hand (which I'm not saying it was given what you think he had), the time to put max pressure would have been the on the flop. You pot flop to $225, villain 1 goes all in, NOW villain 2 has to fold.

    Save the $140. Pray for an off suit 6 to get paid off by villain 1.
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