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$2/$5: Navigating Top Set Vs Different Stacksized Villains

[Deleted User] Posts: 0
edited June 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
V1, HJ: Fishy 50ish guy. Stations too much pre and post. Bluffs in wrong spots post flop. $1000

V2, BB: Younger late 20s guy. Limp/calls pre a lot. Don't have much of a postflop read on him as he doesn't show down a lot. Have seen him call two streets and fold river multiple times. $700

I cover. HJ opens to $20, I call OTB with 9 9 , SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: 9 5 3 Pot $80 BB checks, HJ bets $50, I make it $200, SB folds, BB tank calls, HJ calls.

Turn: 6 Pot $680 Checks to me.

What should the rest of our line look like and why?

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Comments

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I'm between shoving and betting like 300 to shove river. I lean towards 300 but it is close. The looser V's are the more I like shove
  • Bonezy Posts: 82Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    I'm between shoving and betting like 300 to shove river. I lean towards 300 but it is close. The looser V's are the more I like shove
    Can you tell me why you are shoving?

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    To avoid the problem with awkward stacks on rivers. Also think people may talk themselves into thinking we have a draw and call off a little light. Could easily see an overpair or pair plus draw talking itself into a call.

    It isn't my favorite option but definitely know V's I would do it against.
  • Bonezy Posts: 82Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    To avoid the problem with awkward stacks on rivers. Also think people may talk themselves into thinking we have a draw and call off a little light. Could easily see an overpair or pair plus draw talking itself into a call.

    It isn't my favorite option but definitely know V's I would do it against.
    So do you feel like youre missing too much value by checking back the turn? The 6 completed a couple different striaghts, and 87dd could be a likely holding for the bb. Im only asking because I always struggle with ranging cold callers on the flop like that.

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Bonezy said:
    stayinschool said:
    To avoid the problem with awkward stacks on rivers. Also think people may talk themselves into thinking we have a draw and call off a little light. Could easily see an overpair or pair plus draw talking itself into a call.

    It isn't my favorite option but definitely know V's I would do it against.
    So do you feel like youre missing too much value by checking back the turn? The 6 completed a couple different striaghts, and 87dd could be a likely holding for the bb. Im only asking because I always struggle with ranging cold callers on the flop like that.

    I feel like the tank cold call is a FD a lot, I would probably put HJ on an overpair but he can have a FD as well. I do think we miss a little too much value by checking. Maybe shoving isn't the best sizing but think we need to bet. 87dd very possible but even vs that we have 20% ish. Also some action killing rivers
  • Bonezy Posts: 82Subscriber
    I agree the we have to bet, and agree we miss on too much value by not betting. The pot is 680, we have slightly more than a pot sized bet right? I dont hate shoving. I also dont see much of a point getting cute and betting like 375-475. I think the sizing on the flop could have been slightly bigger just for the simple fact of shoving very easy on the turn.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Bonezy said:
    I agree the we have to bet, and agree we miss on too much value by not betting. The pot is 680, we have slightly more than a pot sized bet right? I dont hate shoving. I also dont see much of a point getting cute and betting like 375-475. I think the sizing on the flop could have been slightly bigger just for the simple fact of shoving very easy on the turn.
    In generally that is good but we didn't know BB is going to cold call so kinda impossible to do that for this specific spot.
  • SamyDubz Posts: 28Subscriber
    My 1st thought was V2-fdraw and V1 over pair. If V2 has 480? i like a bet of around 340-360 if he flats V1 wont be able to resist such a big pot with KK and we only need to dodge a diamond. I think we get a lot of folds if we bet more than 400 into two people

    Any mood reads on the villains tilt/frustrated etc?
  • Acehole Posts: 99Subscriber
    edited June 2016
    So it's $780 into $680...Shove it in. You said yourself villain with largest stack is a station postflop, and he already called $200, no other reasons needed.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    I think it's too easy for a FD or single pair to find a fold if we shove this turn.

    If we bet less, are we folding to a bet on a diamond river, regardless of odds? Are we checking back a diamond river? I kinda feel like we have to.

    I think we gotta play this street like it's our last chance to get value. Missed draws aren't paying us on the river, and we aren't paying off the made draws. So we gotta bet the turn for max value. If we can get more on the river, great, but I'm not gonna concern my self with setting up a certain river bet sizing. I don't think these V's have enough hands we can bet against for value on the river.

    If we aren't giving the V any implied odds, then he's making a bad call at any size over $160. $300 feels like an ok sizing, but it probably comes down more to in-game feel. I could see betting $200 or $250 if you think that both V's will call whereas only one would call a bet of $300-$350.
  • MasonIsAClown Posts: 102SubscriberProfessional
    V2 only has 480 left? Just shove. He's highly unlikely to fold his likely range.

    Although I will say, betting exactly v2's stack will sometimes piss them off and make them more likely to call it off, but that's a technique I'm more likely to use when their hand looks more like a hand to hero up with and less like a draw. We are obv committed vs V1 even on bad rivers with this sizing. .
  • [Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2016
    Results:

    I bet $350, BB shoves for $480 total, HJ tank calls, I call.

    River: J Pot $2120 HJ checks, I shove for HJ's remaining $300, HJ folds. BB shows 7 4

    1. Was betting $350 OTT as opposed to shoving a mistake?
    2. Could we find a fold if diamond hit river and HJ shoved his last $300?
  • MasonIsAClown Posts: 102SubscriberProfessional
    Sit with BB every time you see him in a game obv.
  • JapanTown said:
    Results:

    I bet $350, BB shoves for $480 total, HJ tank calls, I call.

    River: J Pot $2120 HJ checks, I shove for HJ's remaining $300, HJ folds. BB shows 7 4

    1. Was betting $350 OTT as opposed to shoving a mistake?
    2. Could we find a fold if diamond hit river and HJ shoved his last $300?
    Anyone?

  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    JapanTown said:
    Results:

    I bet $350, BB shoves for $480 total, HJ tank calls, I call.

    River: J Pot $2120 HJ checks, I shove for HJ's remaining $300, HJ folds. BB shows 7 4

    1. Was betting $350 OTT as opposed to shoving a mistake?
    2. Could we find a fold if diamond hit river and HJ shoved his last $300?
    I like shoving better and no I don't think we can fold for $300
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    JapanTown said:
    1. Was betting $350 OTT as opposed to shoving a mistake?
    I think it was fine. Though, thinking about it more, I think I would have liked a sizing the re-opens the betting when BB shoves.
    JapanTown said:
    2. Could we find a fold if diamond hit river and HJ shoved his last $300?
    Yeah, easily
  • FuzzypupFuzzypup Posts: 2,389Subscriber
    I like the bet. If you shove you let them play perfect. "Well I don't have odds I fold". You bet the right amount to deny odds and keep them in the hand. You can shove if you are fairly sure they will call anyways.

    74o? I think I would excuse myself and go vomit in some random hole. So gross. Then he checks you. I feel ill. Not much you can do about it.
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