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WSOP event #59 $5000 NL

nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
edited July 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
During the broadcast WSOP event 59 Dave Tuchman and Conlan Ma were discussing Alan Du unorthodox cash game techniques against recreational players in a NL $10 $20 game . Ma had played with Du in that game . As the pre flop raiser Du would flop top pair then check it back especially on a wet or draw heavy board hoping you would bet the turn then he would re raise the turn People would call him on the draw and he would either put in a small bet or check back the river it would showdown and they lose. Its an interesting technique to use against weak players but i have a problem with his method . Unless his top pair is suited he risk losing a ton of money on a wet board if opponent calls you down and hits his flush on the river and all you have is top pair showdown. If you need to listen to the replay of the discussion its on YT Just wondering what your thoughts are on this
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Comments

  • ddz Posts: 150SubscriberProfessional
    Let me simply answer by saying that all of the pros in the Bay Area were rooting super hard for him to win. DUCY?
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    Do you think i should play that style at my next $1 $2 cash session?
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    No. Value Value Value. Deception is massively overrated at $1/$2. I don't know the specific hand you describe, but at $1/$2, where people find any reason at all to call, checking back top pair on wet boards is losing way too much value.
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    I was referring to Conlan Ma take on Alan Du in my earlier post where he crushed the competition at $10 $20 tables for two weeks straight using the raise the turn with top pair on primarily wetboards
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    ddz said:
    Let me simply answer by saying that all of the pros in the Bay Area were rooting super hard for him to win. DUCY?
    I go back to this. His player pool is excited he has more money to play with. Meaning, he's not very good and is going to give it back to them. Not sure someone who has that reputation is someone you want to follow.

    Also, trying to play the same game at $1/$2 as someone at $10/$20 is not a very good idea. Stick to the fundamentals at $1/$2... Bet/Raise your hands on the flop. You'll get the value anyway.
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    Hes not very good but didnt he win a bracelet last week in that event ?
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    edited July 2016
    I was not implying playing his style all the time Just try it infrequently during a cash session to keep the bullies in line. I think its obvious others will pick up on it and play back at you. I also find it quite hard to believe that he got away with that playing style for 2 weeks straight before the regs finally caught on to him. I figure if it took 2 weeks for $10 $20 cash game players to finally figure him out it prob take more than a month for the $1 $2 players to catch on
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    I'm certainly not one to tell people not try try new things, strategies, etc. While I think this strategy will result in you winning small pots and losing big ones, I am not naive enough to think there is no chance at it succeeding.

    Give it a run for your next 80-100 hours and give us a report back. Let us know how it goes. Interested to see if it increases your winrate.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    In a 1/2 game, you can absolutely check back a flop with top pair. THere are tons and tons of spots where you prefer to get two fat streets of value on turn and river rather than build an unwieldy pot early with one-pair. Pot control is not a sin.

    I think raising turn and checking back river pretty much accomplishes the same thing as value betting two streets. It's probably a little cheaper since a river bet would likely be larger. It' also gets value from non-made hands that won't pay off on the river. So there are certainly players and situations where this is viable.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    The problem is that you're counting on the villain to bet the turn for you. At your typical $1/$2 game, counting on passive villains to bet for you is usually going to be a mistake.

    There are specific situations where this could be viable, but they're much more common at $10/$20 and $1/$2...
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    nofriends333 said:
    [quote="dpbuck;81518"]I'm certainly not one to tell people not try try new things, strategies, etc. While I think this strategy will result in you winning small pots and losing big ones, I am not naive enough to think there is no chance at it succeeding.

    Give it a run for your next 80-100 hours and give us a report back. Let us know how it goes. Interested to see if it increases your winrate.

    Thanks i will report back with hopefully good news
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    Yeah i agree with DP its more about contingency basis than anything else. Not looking to put all my eggs in one basket . I would normally play my straight forward game and if the turn situation arises then i will take advantage of it . I get your point about $1 $2 players most will give up after the flop if they dont connect . Hell most will fold to a raise preflop but there are exceptions with some players
  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    For the record give me some examples of what you might consider top pair? Sometimes its a judgment call
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    nofriends333 said:
    I get your point about $1 $2 players most will give up after the flop if they dont connect . Hell most will fold to a raise preflop but there are exceptions with some players
    I'm not sure you caught his point
    dpbuck said:
    Value Value Value. ......at $1/$2, where people find any reason at all to call, checking back top pair on wet boards is losing way too much value.
    It's really a player dependent question. I'm not sure the right approach against typical 1/2 villains is to target drawing hands on wet boards. I think that's too narrow. I think you'll encounter plenty of villains who can be coaxed into calling down with super weak top-pair hands, and even second pair or low pocket pair hands. Often times to do that, you need to slow play your own top-pair hands on the flop.


  • nofriends333 Posts: 882Troll
    edited July 2016
    Forgot to mention he was on a heater which allowed him to push his luck and take more chances 100k within a two week period is not too shabby
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