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Flopping Quads with a rebuilding image

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
So played my first NL session since I got back from vegas. Had two really good nights sleep and felt so much better.. Now all the mistakes I made while so tired in my last three events are haunting me.. but thats for another thread..

So I buy in for 1000 and really have an up and down session for the first couple of hours. I get Aces all in pre against two shorter stack rec players and they hold up.. only to get ugly runouts and mini beats to take me down $700 at one point. Naturally I topped off while tilt-texting Jake my shitty luck (he has the patience of jobe :-) - true sign of a great friend! )

within a round or two of getting the minibeats I get a few nice hands and built my stack back up to around 1700-1800.. So I probably have a slightly losing image as most players probably have been paying attention to the hands I have lost and not the three smaller hands I won.

Vil in the hand is a player I have played with for my entire NL career. He has gotten better over the past year but still has a HUGE problem laying down very close to nutted but not nut hands. He chocks it up to a "bad beat" rather than true hand reading. He raised stacked off a few months ago on a board where I was sure he at best was chopping 559J9 where there was a decent chance the vil in that hand had quad 5s or Jacks full. for him he was thinking "I have a full house" and basically torched almost 1000 on the river by check raising when there was no chance of getting called by worse. About a month ago he shipped his whole stack to me when I flopped the nut straight and he has second nut straight.. Vil has around $1200


So with him I might take a slightly more liberal preflop hand to make the super nuts and stack him since he just wont fold.. So when he raised pre to $35 I felt he likely had a big pair. He changes his raise sizing from $15 to even $40 depending on his stack and his starting hand.. but he NEVER raises this big without a premium pair. he doesnt even have AK here.. JJ+

So when I am in the sb and two others have already called I decided to take a stab with A 9 He probably doesnt have an ace and if I flop an ace I might get one or maybe even two streets from him. Pot is $140

Flop 9 9 9 lol..we flop gin.. so here is my problem.. If he does have a big pocket and I bet he will just call down. If he has a big pocket pair and I check raise flop he might call flop and turn but I will also miss getting his stack.. furthermore if I check maybe another player calls with a smaller pair like 88 or even 77 and who knows maybe I get lucky and win a jackpot..

I check.. Vil bets tiny.. $55.. I hope for the other players to call..but they just fold.. God it sucks to be out of position but I am not sure how big his pair is yet.. So I just call.. pot is now $250

Turn 8 I check again.. I think the only way I can get stacks in is to check and go for check raise.. (thoughts?) my feelings were:

1) A player like him never going to expect me to check raise quads..
2) I can tell just how big his pair is by seeing how big he bets..
3)check raising turn is the only way to build a pot big enough where I can possibly get stacks in..
4)If I wait til the river who knows maybe he checks behind.. and that would be just the worst possible thing...


So now he bets.. $125.. I raise to $315 and he snap calls. SNAP.. so now I think he squarely has AA or KK. he is not snap calling with JJ or QQ.. he is also much more likely to have AA in this spot.. (please tell me my sizing ok? should I have raised a bit more?) pot $880 vil has about $700 left..


So a blank comes on the river another low card.. and I just decide based on my read that he is not putting me on a 9.. he doesnt like to fold full houses (zebo theorem) so I just ship.. So I am thinking his calling frequency is inelastic.. so I might as well go for gold since there inst much of a difference in calling if I bet $500 vs $700..

wendy..

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Comments

  • ClockClock Posts: 1,098Subscriber
    I think your line is fine, but vs described villain I think I'm x/shipping turn.
    Don't want to risk and A or K coming on river...
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited July 2016
    I'm a little skeptical of the "he always has a big pair, and never AK" assumption regarding the pre-flop raise. But if that's you're read, I don't see how you can justify calling pre-flop. Out of position, multi-way, drawing to three action-killing outs.....fold.

    On the flop you're $1,165 effective. SPR is 8. All you gotta do is bet/bet/bet. Anything else is fancy-play. You know about zeebo, you know he has a full house. Any hesitation because you're worried he might fold is MUBS.

    Bet 100 on flop, 275 on turn, shove for 790 on river. Easy game.

    As played, just min-raise flop and continue with the above plan.

    I really don't like the turn check. I think your reasons are valid, I just think it's too risky that he's got 88, or TT and is just in a hurry to get to showdown. You can bet here. He won't fold 88 or TT.

    As played on the turn....raise bigger. On the river you said "if he's calling $500, he'll call $700". Use that exact same logic and just make it $400 to set up a really easy stack off for the river.
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    not calling pre

    tweak up the turn x-r just a touch

    shove river
    by 1JKH
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Rocketman74 said:
    not calling pre

    tweak up the turn x-r just a touch

    shove river
    if we were heads up I am probably folding ..but with two others in the pot I can overflush someone I thinks its worth the risk..

    so how much would you have raised on the turn??
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    if we were heads up I am probably folding ..but with two others in the pot I can overflush someone I thinks its worth the risk..
    fair enough
    Thehammah said:
    so how much would you have raised on the turn??
    just a smidge bigger... $375 works as it's 3x his bet and jiggles the river to $650 into $980

    ...also I get that you're just trying to 'keep this fish on' so not wanting to scare him off is understandable.

    Hope he called :lol:
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I texted jake and he also thought the turn cr should have been closer to $400.. sizing is always such an art.. I am glad I did raise though... if they fold they fold..but so much better to set up ship spot on river then getting maybe another $300..
  • pokertime Posts: 2,180Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    I texted jake and he also thought the turn cr should have been closer to $400.. sizing is always such an art.. I am glad I did raise though... if they fold they fold..but so much better to set up ship spot on river then getting maybe another $300..
    That's it. The whole point is your setting up a shove so size it correctly especially if he can talk himself into a call.
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    Thehammah said:
    I texted jake and he also thought the turn cr should have been closer to $400.. sizing is always such an art.. I am glad I did raise though... if they fold they fold..but so much better to set up ship spot on river then getting maybe another $300..
    I'll cut&paste my text :

    I might make the turn like 375 or 385, so river bet isn't so large
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,399Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    ... Bet 100 on flop, 275 on turn, shove for 790 on river. Easy game.

    As played, just min-raise flop and continue with the above plan.

    I really don't like the turn check. I think your reasons are valid, I just think it's too risky that he's got 88, or TT and is just in a hurry to get to showdown. You can bet here. He won't fold 88 or TT.

    As played on the turn....raise bigger. On the river you said "if he's calling $500, he'll call $700". Use that exact same logic and just make it $400 to set up a really easy stack off for the river.
    I think Wendy's check raise on the turn is the best play here to build the pot against an over pair. Yes, her sizing ideally should be bigger - $375 - $400.

    I don't like your line bet bet bet here given her read. The river bet is just so huge that it may cause the Villian to fold everything but AA and maybe KK.

  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    Arenzano said:
    I think Wendy's check raise on the turn is the best play here to build the pot against an over pair.
    We failed to get good value on the flop, we can't use that mistake to justify a risk play on the turn. We lose far far far too much value if the turn checks through. We lose that whole street and our river sizing is exponentially shrunk. It's a risk we cannot afford to take.

    She gave 4 reasons for making the check raise. I kind of agreed with them at first but thinking more I would say... 1) Fine 2) So what? 3) A better way would have been to shovel money in on the flop 4) Am I even reading that one right? We plan to check the river if the turn checks through?

    I really hate debating situations that should never occur in the first place. the only thing I will add is that I would postively hate myself if I flopped quads against a guy we know can't fold 2nd nut hands and only extracted 11BB's over two early streets of betting. There is no way in the universe that could be considered good poker.
    Arenzano said:
    I don't like your line bet bet bet here given her read. The river bet is just so huge that it may cause the Villian to fold everything but AA and maybe KK.
    What about her read makes you not like the bet/bet/bet line? Sure he's known to make big bets with 2nd best hands, but so what? That doesn't obligate us to defeat him in that exact way. It's a $5 blind game, and the guy has a full house. The bet sizing sequence I've suggested offers the villain better than 2 to 1 on every street. How in the world does he fold?

    Her read also told us that he overplays big hands in this spot. There's no reason to think we won't get raised, making the sizing game from there on out lol-easy.

    If you told me villain had range other than big pocket pairs, and he might get LAGgy if he we act weak or if he happens to catch a backdoor draw....then fine, i can find a check somewhere in the hand. Or if we were playing higher with smarter villains who can make tighter folds. Then I could see the need for some trickeration.

    But dude.... if we're going with the OP's read that he has a full house and he refuses to fold 2nd nut-ish hands.....there is absolutely no need to get fancy here
  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    I wouldn't lead the flop. with hero's read, villain will be betting 99% OTF and might cbet AK in case he has that. by c/r flop we can get more money in earlier which is best if he has only TT-QQ.

    don't understand why hero is concerned that villain could lay down QQ+ at any point no matter what line we take. if that was the case, your read is wrong and/or your preflop call is even worse.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    As a white woman I am telling you guys I get folds that you just never have to deal with.

    this leads me in some situations to take a slightly different line that a simple barrel barrel barrel.

    against this villain leading all three streets will absolutely get paid. but I cant get almost 300 bbs without check raising. if I c/r the flop then I still cant build the pot big enough to get 300 bbs.

    only check raising the turn or river will do this. check raising the river is easiest to get in stacks but looks the strongest and from me that just might get villain to fold.

    check raising the turn against this villain gives me more info plus he is way more likely to call the turn and now the pot is so big his tendencies to call with very strong hands will take over

    Spoiler:
    I shipped as I said. he tanked for about 30 seconds and said he "had" to pay me off and called. I showed quads he mucked and just got up and left
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