Welcome.

Take a tour. Enjoy some free sample content.

How it works

Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
New to Crush Live Poker?

When is straddling plus ev?

JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
edited July 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I typically like to straddle when one or both of the players on my right are deeper stacked and weaker players. Also when no one in late position is solid and attacking the straddle like they should be? In this scenario I like to also double straddle or at my home casino ( where straddle amount is uncapped )straddle for 3-4 big blinds. ... And when I say deep I mean at least 300 big blinds deep. Thoughts?
Tagged:
«1

Comments

  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    If you're talking about a normal straddle where you are UTG (and double straddle is UTG+1) then this almost surely is -EV, even in good games. If you can post in any position, then stradding from late position, especially the button, can be +EV.
    by 1JKH
  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    MikeG said:
    If you're talking about a normal straddle where you are UTG (and double straddle is UTG+1) then this almost surely is -EV, even in good games. If you can post in any position, then stradding from late position, especially the button, can be +EV.
    I am talking about both straddling and double straddling .... And in a passive game with deep stacked fish on my right and yes utg or utg plus 1 I have had Akot of success straddling but that is when I believe I have a significant skill advantage on my opponents on my right
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    Paying extra blinds + increasing the stakes when you're out of position is almost never +EV. But, you seem to think that this is +ev for you. Can you explain why?
  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    MikeG said:
    Paying extra blinds + increasing the stakes when you're out of position is almost never +EV. But, you seem to think that this is +ev for you. Can you explain why?
    Because a highly likely scenario in the hand is playing pots in position with deep stacked fish who once complete the straddle are going to call almost any raise I make, Also the shorter the game gets the more I increase my straddle frequency.
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    That answer is leading to more questions in my head!
    1) Why do you think it is 'highly likely' that you're playing pots *in position* when you're UTG and UTG+1?
    2) If you want to play pots in position against fish, you're definitely sitting in the right seat, but why wouldn't you prefer to play against them when you actually have good hands?
    3) If you just want to play every hand when weak fish are in the blinds, why wouldn't you prefer to look at your cards and then decide to limp or raise?

  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    MikeG said:
    That answer is leading to more questions in my head!
    1) Why do you think it is 'highly likely' that you're playing pots *in position* when you're UTG and UTG+1?
    2) If you want to play pots in position against fish, you're definitely sitting in the right seat, but why wouldn't you prefer to play against them when you actually have good hands?
    3) If you just want to play every hand when weak fish are in the blinds, why wouldn't you prefer to look at your cards and then decide to limp or raise?

    1 Because as stated the table is playing very passively or is short handed
    2 I do prefer to play good hands with them but when deep stacked I like playing all hands with them, and I do not bloat the pot further with weak hands but I do with good hands which works to make them additionally cally and stubborn post flop
    3 No because they will fold there blind to my raise, but they will complete the straddle and the With that money committed to the pot call my raise with a higher frequency.

  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    If the table is 3 or 4 handed, then sure, because then you're really in position.

    Otherwise, I think you're paying extra blinds (which is -ev), lowering your skill edge (the bigger you make the stakes, the lower your skill edge. For example, when you double straddle, you're changing the game from 300bb deep to 75bb deep), and putting yourself in awkward positions with mediocre hands.

    That's my thought on this plan. We'll see what other people chime in with.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    UTG straddles cannot be +EV IMO. Just the fact that the pot is bigger doesn't make up for paying an extra 2BB per hand. You cannot overcome that, and even if you could be profitable while straddling UTG you would be more profitable not straddling.

    IMO sounds like you just like straddling and are trying to convince yourself that it is +EV. It's fine to straddle but not a winning play
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited July 2016
    The following advice assumes that you are over-rolled for your current stakes.

    You should wait for an action player to put out an UTG straddle. Once he has done so, ask the table to do a round of UTG straddles. Or you can offer to be the first one to start a round of UTG straddles because people are a lot more likely to agree to a round of straddles as long as they aren't the the first one to start the round of straddles. Getting the table to play bigger for 1 orbit will be a big plus for your winrate. For example, playing 5/10/20 NL for an orbit instead of just 5/10 NL will really pump up your hourly profit.

    You will also often get on the good side of a lot of action players because they are appreciative of your trying to get others to straddle with them. Remember that you are the casino, and your bottom line depends heavily on high quality customer service.

    It is also good to be firm yet polite about nudging people to straddle and reminding people that it is their turn to straddle. If there is 1 guy who is objecting to a round of straddles, you can always wait to ask him again politely right after he won a big pot. Or you can just wait for him to take a break from the table where he is eating food for an orbit or walking around casino for an orbit. WhIle he has an out button in front of him, you can get the table to do a quick round of straddles before the objecter returns. If a fun Rec Player Who was already voluntarily straddling several times before the rouND of straddles ends up forgetting to straddle for some reason, don'the make a big deal of it and give him a pass and defend his forgetfulness if some nit complains about him not putting out a straddle for that round.

    As far as EV goes, it is also good to UTG straddle voluntarily when several action players are consistently straddling already. Even though there may be 1-3 people who are refusing to straddle, it is great for your image to be perceived as a fun guy who likes to straddle in the eyes of the action players. Even though you are giving up some immediate EV, you will more than make it back in terms of goodwill among the Action players.

    I have had many times when I have been able to get action players to table change to my table or even play bigger games with me like 10/20 NL+ simply because they like me for being a non-nitty fun player. Being willing to straddle voluntarily when the whales want to splash around is just part of the job description if you want to be a successful mid-high stakes live NLHE crusher.

    by 1JKH
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited July 2016
    In other words, "Don't lose sight of the forest for the trees."
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    Note well, that David Chan is NOT saying that an UTG or UTG+1 straddle is +ev for you, because it is not. However, if everyone does it, then it's just like adding blinds and has the added effect of losening up the table and attracting action junkies. This, however, is very different than making the argument that you, yourself, can straddle and double straddle and create a situation by yourself that is +ev, because you just can't.
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    edited July 2016
    The other thing about straddling is that the action players who are often straddling are usually smart business people/professionals in real life away from the felt. They know that they are giving action in a -EV way by straddling UTG.

    So if you always sit back and just let them UTG straddle by themselves without ever straddling in some way, they will perceive you as a nitty grinder who is there to grind them down...especially if you do other grinder things like wrap a backpack around your chair, Tank forever on each decision, and/or talk GTO strategy or game selection with others regs.

    On the other hand, you could be the fun guy who likes to give them action too. Throwing out the occasional UTG straddle when a whale is on the BTN is probably a +EV investment in the long run as long as there aren't any aggro regs/pros in HJ/CO. This will endear you to them especially if you are good at other intangibles that keep up a really good friendly gambly vibe at the table.
    by 1JKH
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    I think what DC is trying to say, is that straddling is -EV. But if everyone does it, then it's really EV neutral. POker is a zero sum game. So whatever EV you give up when you straddle is absorbed by the rest of the table. The next hand, someone else is sacrificing EV, and the rest of the table, which now includes you, receives the benefit.
  • FreeLunch Posts: 1,309Pro
    I agree with @davidchan but the rest of you all are getting stuck on a misleading +- EV argument. In any given hand its -EV to straddle, but the definition of EV does not have to be "just for this hand" There is no reason not to include the future +ev benefit from an action, so if doing something unprofitable now will lead to future profits then its a +EV decision. If you can play a more profitable game for the next few hours because you amp up the straddle then that is a +EV decision. If other players think you are action, reckless, frustrated, or whatever makes them play less profitably vs you then that is a +EV decision.
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    In any given hand its -EV to straddle, but the definition of EV does not have to be "just for this hand" There is no reason not to include the future +ev benefit from an action, so if doing something unprofitable now will lead to future profits then its a +EV decision. If you can play a more profitable game for the next few hours because you amp up the straddle then that is a +EV decision.
    Yeah, but this is where DavidChan dirrected the conversation in a different direction. Note that this is NOT the argument being made by Jason. Jason thinks that it is +EV in a particular hand because he thinks that it leads him to play pots in position against deepstacked fish. He says nothing about image, future value, etc. David (and you) are acknowledging that it is -EV, but can imagine scenarios where it might +FutureEV, if you get other people to straddle, open up the game, attract whales, etc. Even then, David makes clear that he wants to see everyone straddle or at least most of the table. That's quite a bit different than wanting to straddle yourself (and double straddle) alone, every single orbit, because you think that it puts you in +EV spots.
  • JKH Posts: 835Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    MikeG said:
    In any given hand its -EV to straddle, but the definition of EV does not have to be "just for this hand" There is no reason not to include the future +ev benefit from an action, so if doing something unprofitable now will lead to future profits then its a +EV decision. If you can play a more profitable game for the next few hours because you amp up the straddle then that is a +EV decision.


    Yeah, but this is where DavidChan dirrected the conversation in a different direction. Note that this is NOT the argument being made by Jason. Jason thinks that it is +EV in a particular hand because he thinks that it leads him to play pots in position against deepstacked fish. He says nothing about image, future value, etc. David (and you) are acknowledging that it is -EV, but can imagine scenarios where it might +FutureEV, if you get other people to straddle, open up the game, attract whales, etc. Even then, David makes clear that he wants to see everyone straddle or at least most of the table. That's quite a bit different than wanting to straddle yourself (and double straddle) alone, every single orbit, because you think that it puts you in +EV spots.
    let me elaborate or expand on the situation I am discussing ...that when the table is playing passive enough and when shorter or when I think a big straddle will not be raised by marginal opening hands as well as when I have deep stacked fish on my right I am saying I have had success getting into good situations with fish. Typically it works well when the table is 6-7 handed or less and the players are not likely to raise with tens plus.

    At the end of the day I am mainly talking about the following situation
    ....if u could have a 75% chance of having position on a fish when u both are at least $1500 effective in a 2-5 game each with a random hand and the fish automatically willing to call the flop bet a little stickier with any pair or draw, (not necessarily the turn) do u think it is plus ev to invest $10,$15 or $20 dollars to create this situation?

    Everything David Chan is speaking about is a bonus
    I also think the players I am speaking about are a few times more passive than anyone who subscribes to clp
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    JasonH said:

    let me elaborate or expand on the situation I am discussing ...that when the table is playing passive enough and when shorter or when I think a big straddle will not be raised by marginal opening hands as well as when I have deep stacked fish on my right I am saying I have had success getting into good situations with fish. Typically it works well when the table is 6-7 handed or less and the players are not likely to raise with tens plus.

    At the end of the day I am mainly talking about the following situation
    ....if u could have a 75% chance of having position on a fish when u both are at least $1500 effective in a 2-5 game each with a random hand and the fish automatically willing to call the flop bet a little stickier with any pair or draw, (not necessarily the turn) do u think it is plus ev to invest $10,$15 or $20 dollars to create this situation?

    Everything David Chan is speaking about is a bonus
    I also think the players I am speaking about are a few times more passive than anyone who subscribes to clp
    No it is not, I agree with david and building a dynamic of being a more fun action loving player, however, in a vacuum from a spot to spot basis I do not think a UTG staddle can be +EV.

    Your argument is this, when I am just UTG I won't be able to play as many hands because I cant open as much UTG and miss out playing with the fish in the blinds. However, when I staddle I do get to play with the fish in the blinds UTG. That doesn't make sense. Putting money in the pot when opening UTG is not different than staddleing. If you want to play with the fish in the blinds open more, that is a very reasonable strategy, how just putting out 2BB dead is not.
    by 1JKH
  • DavidChan Posts: 1,208Pro
    IMHO, UTG straddling is usuallY -EV. With that said, having Passive players in late position and deep stacked bad players to our right are going to lead to less unfavorable UTG straddle situations than aggro pros in late position and nits to our right.

    Even though I think UTG straddling is usually -immediate EV, it is still good to recognize situations where it will only be slightly - immediate EV. JasonH is describing a situation where straddling UTG isn't giving up very much immediate EV. Those are the times when it often makes sense straddle for future EV (Image building, game building, etc.) because we are only giving up a tiny amount of immediate EV)
    by 1JKH
  • MikeG Posts: 989Subscriber
    I normally agree with you, DC, and you're a very capable player, but for the life of me I can't figure out why you're giving this advice in this thread.
    Paying 7.5bb per orbit is atrocious (.5 in the sb, 1 in the bb, 2 utg and 4 utg+1), even in the slightly less terrible conditions described.
    Further, while I agree that it is good to recognize situations where we can take a small immediate hit to EV but gain a large future EV image, that's clearly not what is happening here. JasonH legitimately believes that it is favorable in each individual hand to straddle and double-straddle when nobody else at the table is doing it so he can isolate (?!?!) the blinds.

    I think StayInSchool hit the nail on the head in the first place in saying that it seems like OP just likes to straddle and is trying to talk himself into an excuse for it, and I think David is giving him that excuse. This isn't about cultivating an image or keeping a whale in the game or loosening the players. This is about Jason wanting to straddle and thinking that by doing it he is isolating the big blinds who are 300bb deep fish.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    MikeG said:
    I normally agree with you, DC, and you're a very capable player, but for the life of me I can't figure out why you're giving this advice in this thread.
    Paying 7.5bb per orbit is atrocious (.5 in the sb, 1 in the bb, 2 utg and 4 utg+1), even in the slightly less terrible conditions described.
    Further, while I agree that it is good to recognize situations where we can take a small immediate hit to EV but gain a large future EV image, that's clearly not what is happening here. JasonH legitimately believes that it is favorable in each individual hand to straddle and double-straddle when nobody else at the table is doing it so he can isolate (?!?!) the blinds.

    I think StayInSchool hit the nail on the head in the first place in saying that it seems like OP just likes to straddle and is trying to talk himself into an excuse for it, and I think David is giving him that excuse. This isn't about cultivating an image or keeping a whale in the game or loosening the players. This is about Jason wanting to straddle and thinking that by doing it he is isolating the big blinds who are 300bb deep fish.
    I mean I agree that if we can get the table to do it it is very good for us. Getting to play a game twice as big is going to be good for us
Sign In or Register to comment.