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How valuable is KK?

I'm a tournament player who is trying to learn cash. It's going pretty well on the whole playing 1/2 or 1/3 but three times in the last month I've run KK into AA and gotten stacked. As a tournament player, I'm used to working hard to get it all in pre with KK, but is that really that different in cash? When somebody 4bets for 50% of his stack should I just assume he's got aces?
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Comments

  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    No, GII KK pre. Still very good in cash
  • Dab44 Posts: 408Subscriber
    No u should hardly ever fold KK pre as it's usually a mistake. Especially at 1/2, never fold them pre..People will show up with JJ,QQ,AK more often than AA.
  • JKH Posts: 831Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    Folding Kk is like folding a set its very rare but it happens, when u have kk odds of running into aa is .5% per player at the table so a 10 player table it's about 4.5% and at a 5 handed game 2% so folding kk is very player dependant and usually wrong.

    But for me it's all about stack depth unless against a fish or aggressive player capable of bluffing all in: I break kk down like such:
    100bb - kk is the nuts preflop
    200bb - kk is still pretty nutted
    400bb- time to start thinking about your opponents capabilities and tendancies
    1000bb deep - ugh still 3 betting and 5 betting but may just call a 6 bet here or start to be creative with some positional calls and set value starts to increase and position now becomes important
    I am definitely not auto stacking off preflop here
    Also running kk into aa 3 times in one month in live poker is just unlucky and on the wrong side of variance ....

    Mathematically u get kk 1 in every 221 hands so about once every 7 hours assuming just over 30 hands an hour or about once every session so if play an average of ten sessions a month or 70 hours and see about 2210 hands u should only run kk into aa about once every 2 months. So 3 times in one month is 6 times greater than expectation or so. Which is like flipping a coin and getting it to land tales 6 times in a row, So keep getting kk in preflop.... Like Doyle says bet the farm on kings U will win with it
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    @100BB is never really s mistake to get in KK pre, when stacks get deeper 200BB+ at 1/2 you'll never see anyone put in 50% of their stack in without AA in a 4/bet and at 2/5 as well.
  • JKH Posts: 831Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    Letmewin1 said:
    @100BB is never really s mistake to get in KK pre, when stackso get deeper 200BB+ at 1/2 you'll never see anyone put in 50% of their stack in without AA in a 4/bet and at 2/5 as well.
    ....Making the assumption of solid players
  • Letmewin1 Posts: 1,238Member
    edited July 2016
    JasonH said:
    Letmewin1 said:
    @100BB is never really s mistake to get in KK pre, when stackso get deeper 200BB+ at 1/2 you'll never see anyone put in 50% of their stack in without AA in a 4/bet and at 2/5 as well.
    ....Making the assumption of solid players
    Agreed.

    Guess I should have read your post first...probably would have kept quiet...
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    In summary, KK is a very strong hand and will make up a lot of your win rate. Very valuable
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited July 2016
    I dare anyone to watch 10,000 hours of 1/2 and count how many times a pre-flop 4-bet, that is not a shove, is not AA or KK. You'll probably only need one hand to keep count. The scenario the OP described is an instant fold for KK, and it's not even close

    1/2 and 1/3 players never, ever, 4bet AK or QQ. Bank on it

    I'm really surprised at the advice so far in this thread
  • Jstevens1118 Posts: 13Subscriber
    edited July 2016
    BananaStand said:
    I dare anyone to watch 10,000 hozeeurs of 1/2 and count how many times a pre-flop 4-bet, that is not a shove, is not AA or KK. You'll probably only need one hand to keep count. The scenario the OP described is an instant fold for KK, and it's not even close

    1/2 and 1/3 players never, ever, 4bet AK or QQ. Bank on it

    I'm really surprised at the advice so far in this thread
    I don't think this is as true in the 1-2, 1-3 or even 100 BB Capped 2-5. With shorter stacks, even sometimes with the full 100 BB, people get it in with QQ, AK, even AQ suited or JJ. I played 2-5 capped games and very rarely see it get to 5 betting for getting it in these spots. I agree with most on here, the deeper you are (hence the more chances of having a 5 bet preflop) the more I would consider folding. But short stacks (75 BB and under) can't see how you dont get it in as played.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    The OP asked about 1/2 and 1/3. There is no such thing as 5 betting in those games.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    The OP specified that villain made a 4 bet that was only for half of his stack. So saying that people will "get it in" with JJ or AQ is not relevant. Villain in this hand didn't "get it in". When there is money left to play post flop after a 4 bet, it's aces.

    In that specific scenario that OP described, it's aces, like all the time
  • PBJTIME Posts: 336Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    The OP specified that villain made a 4 bet that was only for half of his stack. So saying that people will "get it in" with JJ or AQ is not relevant. Villain in this hand didn't "get it in". When there is money left to play post flop after a 4 bet, it's aces.

    In that specific scenario that OP described, it's aces, like all the time
    In the lower limit games it's mostly aces and sometimes (rarely) kings.
  • Jstevens1118 Posts: 13Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    The OP specified that villain made a 4 bet that was only for half of his stack. So saying that people will "get it in" with JJ or AQ is not relevant. Villain in this hand didn't "get it in". When there is money left to play post flop after a 4 bet, it's aces.

    In that specific scenario that OP described, it's aces, like all the time
    Sorry misread that as 5 bet. It seems this game must be deep then for a 1-3, as a 4 bet for half stack seems small and hard to get to depending on bet sizing. With that said, and not knowing stack sizes, I see AA jamming more there than min or value raising. We've shown strength at that point so we might have a high frequency of calling off any bet. 4 betting and leaving some behind still can be AK, QQ. Ultimately just a bad spot and never feel good calling or folding
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,391Subscriber
    Instead of flat assuming the V has AA, you'd be better trying to determine what the V is capable of or likely to do in that spot. Yes, many times it is AA but it can be QQ JJ or AK sometimes AQ TT. Go with your read, if you feel the V is only doing that with AA then fold. If you think the V is capable of making that play with less than AA then get it in.
  • Beatsme Posts: 585Subscriber
    I will agree that if someone 4 bets you at 1/2 or 1/3 it's Aces or kings almost always esp if they money behind. It would be rare to see someone show up with something else. That said if you can find a hero fold here 1 out of the 4 times (like against an omc).... and then make sure you stack your opponent everytime the situation is reversed you will be crushing
  • popcornkiddo Posts: 10Subscriber
    I'm always surprised by how many relatively solid 1/2 players will stick their whole stack in pre with AK
  • JKH Posts: 831Subscriber
    popcornkiddo said:
    I'm always surprised by how many relatively solid 1/2 players will stick their whole stack in pre with AK
    I will up to 200 BB situationally
    70bb without thinking much
  • Dab44 Posts: 408Subscriber
    popcornkiddo said:
    I'm always surprised by how many relatively solid 1/2 players will stick their whole stack in pre with AK
    That's because they are mostly tournament donks & AK= the nutz to them.
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