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Flat or click back best line?

ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I was playing in a 2-5 100-300 buy in game. effective stacks are about 300. utg+1 is nice older gentlemen who likes to catch ppl he perceives as trying to bet him off his hands and has been calling very very light all in with underpair to board. He raises to 20 for first time that I have been at the table and I am putting him on a very narrow range of 10s+ and AK. He has about 300 behind

I call next to act with 9 T spades and three other players also call. Pot is 100.. Flop comes

678 rainbow..

He bets 100.. would you just flat here as the next player to act? Original raiser only has about 180 left so a click back puts him all in and the rest of the players have anywhere from 200-450 ish.. I have everyone in the hand covered

Wendy

Comments

  • I like to flat here. Although we generally call pre-flop to go after the raiser's stack this flop would give us more opportunity to go after the over callers' stacks. Once you call there's $300 in the pot and about one pot size bet left.

    If we raise we are likely to blow out the straight drawing hands such as 98, 108, 97, 65, etc. While a flat could easily induce a later caller with 2 pair plus to raise. Given the pre flop raiser's range, tendencies and stack size there's still a lot of safe cards that he would probably continue with once the turn comes.
  • I rarely like to flat when I have a big hand, but this is a situation where I would do it. No real reason not to believe that he has a perceived big hand and it is all going in on the turn and if things go well, one of the other players will raise behind you.
  • reedmylipsreedmylips Posts: 1,146Subscriber
    It looks like all the money's getting in by the river anyway as stacks are pretty shallow compared to the pot size, so no need to rush things - just flat. Laugh
  • jeffreyneuman Posts: 19Member
    I flat here 100% , you have nailed this flop and if you raise you lose action from the other players behind & give the raiser a chance to play correctly and fold . I think it's very important to get maximum value here and not run everybody out . Savor this spot .
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    The preflop raiser was going to call no matter what I bet or didn't. That I was sure.. even though he thought he might be behind he always stuck his money in. After the hand I thought about it and realized that I probably could have gotten more value. I shoved actually.. lol. I had over 1000 even though everyone else at the table only had 300 or less I forgot how strong that looks.

    bah!

    and yes the preflop raiser gladly stuck in his last 150 and he had only QQ and I busted him..

    Wendy
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    I prefer call over flat.
    And yes I know they are the same. But flat sounds too "poker-y" for my tastes.

    Wendy-
    Everybody is gonna play cautiously in this pot, but the stacks aren't deep here (ie : you're not risking that much by slow playing for the possibility of getting everybody committed to the hand), so I think "call" (not flat, or if u wanna flat, you can "flat call") is fine.
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Flat all day and twice on sunday.

    Shouldn't we be folding pre with stack sizes? I wouldn't, but shouldn't we fold using mathematics and stuff?
  • Yeah, pre should be a fold.

    I think the flop is a call more often then not but it really depends on how bad the players are behind you. A flat looks super strong to me. Are these guys going to call with say 97 or something after youve called off 1/3 effective stacks? In theory if I were to tell you that everyone behind was going to fold what then? It would be a shame if a T, 9, 8, 4 or 5 came on the turn and you lost out on the guys stack.

    Bart
  • ChipChairmanChipChairman Posts: 41Subscriber
    I think at the 2/5 level in CA cardrooms, when you flat for 1/3 your stack people will put you on a draw and be more likely to overplay their hand. You might get QQ to go all in and original better to call all in with a draw and then you can snap ship once he is committed!

    Oh, and you're a nit Wendy; Fold pre. Cool
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    ChipChairman said

    I think at the 2/5 level in CA cardrooms, when you flat for 1/3 your stack people will put you on a draw and be more likely to overplay their hand. You might get QQ to go all in and original better to call all in with a draw and then you can snap ship once he is committed!

    Oh, and you're a nit Wendy; Fold pre. Cool
    I know.. Bart chewed me out for calling pre too.. My only argument is that I had not seen this guy raise for two hours... I knew his range was tight very tight and probably a big pair. He also was the type of player that wouldnt fold to any kind of heat.. I saw him twice before call off all in with a pair below top pair because he thought the other guy was making a play against him w ak.

    so even though I knew I didn't quite have the right effective stack against him he did have a bit over 300 so it wasnt way far off and I knew if I hit the board I would get his whole stack.. So I decided to gamble a bit..

    If I had say 108 suited.. I would have folded...

    So if you know you are pretty much guranteed to get paid off by the preflop raiser when you hit big with a SC can you call with a little less than 20:1? Part of wanting 20 or 30:1 with SCs is that sometimes you will hit big but they wont. If this guy is always paying me off shouldnt this ratio go down a bit too?

    Wendy
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