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5/5 hand against the most villainous villain ever!

Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
5/5 300-1000 @ The Bike
Effective stacks: $1,300.

Villain is a local pro who runs a popular poker strategy website. Yup, it's Bart.

I'm in early position with JclubJheart

I open for $20. Player to my left calls. Bart calls in late position.

Flop ($60) comes 9heart 8heart 8club

I lead for $40. Player to my left calls. Bart makes it $175.

I think there could be a lot of draws in his range. I might make this raise myself with the nut flush draw.

I make the call. Player to my left folds.

Turn ($450) comes 2diamond

I check. Bart makes it $305. I mini-tank a bit and decide to call.

River ($1,060) comes 2club

I check. Bart asks to see my stack and he moves all in.

Obviously my hand can only beat busted draws now. He's not value betting a hand I can beat. On one hand, it's hard to believe he's doing this with total air. On the other hand, he did just bet $800 into a $1,060 pot. Does that look like a bet he's hoping will get called?

Thoughts?

Comments

  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Steve said

    5/5 300-100 @ The Bike
    Effective stacks: $1,300.

    Villain is a local pro who runs a popular poker strategy website. Yup, it's Bart.

    I'm in early position with JclubJheart

    I open for $20. Player to my left calls. Bart calls in late position.

    Flop ($60) comes 9heart 8heart 8club

    I lead for $40. Player to my left calls. Bart makes it $175.

    I think there could be a lot of draws in his range. I might make this raise myself with the nut flush draw.

    I make the call. Player to my left folds.

    Turn ($450) comes 2diamond

    I check. Bart makes it $305. I mini-tank a bit and decide to call.

    River ($1,060) comes 2club

    I check. Bart asks to see my stack and he moves all in.

    Obviously my hand can only beat busted draws now. He's not value betting a hand I can beat. On one hand, it's hard to believe he's doing this with total air. On the other hand, he did just bet $800 into a $1,060 pot. Does that look like a bet he's hoping will get called?

    Thoughts?
    Its Bart Hanson, dude, you are just supposed to fold your hand once he bets ! Haha ok so really you have to look at everything carefully to help you navigate this hand. Bart can easily call in abs position with a wide range of hands. You open in EP. Im not sure what your image is, but lets assume Barts range is widest in spots where he is in position with the chance to play a tighter player heads up. He would do this knowing those player types play so few hands that they rarely fold post flop, so when he is ahead he can get major value, and when he is behind he can just play wet boards very aggro or immediately fold. Obviously this information doesn't help us narrow things down at all. So lets continue with the hand. You are flatted, also from EP. This action should have an immediate effect on Barts decisions, even with position. He now has to have some sort of hand that can realize value post flop, IE you shouldn't be seeing random 8-2, A6o, any kind of random hands. He really should show up with small-med pairs and suited connector type hands, as at +200bb deep this is a great implied odds scenarios. Jx type hands also play very well multi-way. I think it is much less likely we see Ax hands unless they are suited. So he flats, and now we arrive at our flop of 9heart8heart8club

    Honestly, this is a pretty good flop for you, over pair plus backdoor equity to straights and flushes. Your 2/3 pot bet sizing is usually indicative of a top pair/OP type of hand to anyone else in the hand. The bet is standard and fine, I don't think we should be checking what is likely the best hand most of the time. Now the other EP flats your bet. We need to begin to carve a range for the other EP player here. Preflop it is the same scenario as Bart, he could be set mining or playing suited connector type hands, I also think we will tend to see more AJ, AQ than we ever would with Bart based on position and action. Once he flats your flop bet though, we can really narrow his range. Playing between players in this spot is pretty undesirable. He really would never be floating hands here to make plays at the board. You don't have to worry about much about wired pair hands since any continuing here should be overpairs, which should have raised preflop. You could make a case for 1010 but 77 is way optimisitic given the bad position. Top pair hands also seem less likely from this player, as it would be a EP call with a hand like k9, Q9, J9 (removal). Legitimately I could only see specifically 89 suited or A9suited, with 89 being pretty unlikely. So now that's all out of the way, we can weight the in between players hand much more heavily to draws. If we eliminate the Jx due to removal, its usually a broadway type hand like QK ss, or AXss.

    Now that we have a handle on that, lets look at Bart's action . He repops here to 175 (into a pot of 130). Way hefty here, we have to look at the hands we would do this with so we can also narrow his range down. Barts bet here is huge, so really we should be able to use this to eliminate a ton of hands. First off, I think (IMO) its really easy to eliminate any one pair hands from his range. For the same reason as the in-between player, we likely would have heard pre-flop from one pair hands that beat you. Top pair hands (like Q9ss, K9ss) are more likely with Bart than the other player based on position, but what would be his rationale in bumping up the flop so big with a hand like top pair+straight draw? He is only ever going to get action from all of the hands ahead of him. It really makes no sense in a multi-way pot especially. It would be hard for me to see him doing this with naked straight draws. Flush draws are also likely in his range, though it would almost have to be exclusively the NFDs. Again, Im not sure why he would raise a weaker draw so big in a multi way pot, knowing the nut flush draw will ALWAYS call and he might induce action from a player that had an 8. Again, he would only be called by hands that had him in bad shape. I think the multi-way nature of this pot makes it much easier to weight Barts hand toward NFDs, SFDs, and hands with an 8. You might say a good player would play scary boards like this with air in position, but his bet sizing should really tell you he doesn't have complete air. Risk vs reward isn't good enough to make plays with nothing on the flop. If he had air I think his line would look much less bluffy on the flop and he would wait for the turn and river to start applying massive pressure. An 8 here makes a lot of sense because he is going to get value from all of the draws and maybe the overpair that is in your perceived range. It would be a hand he would not want to slowplay. If Bart has a 8 here, I think it is specifically going to be a hand like 68 78, 88, 98, J8, or Q8 .

    So now you decide to flat, and this is where it gets hairy. This is such a tough hand to play ooP with this kind of board. Your every move is going to be analyzed and used against you. I know you are ahead of his draws, and you have backdoor equity yourself, I just think you really need a specific plan of action when you call such a big bet. What is your perceived range here when you flat? I think it definitely falls squarely on overpairs like JJ-AA. If you flat the turn, I think it would have to be against the type of player that will usually give up after one bullet. I don't think Bart is that type when your range is clearly defined, he has position and knows an overpair cant take much more heat on this board. He also knows he can extract value from overpairs and NFD when he is holding an 8. His strong line continues on the turn, and now we should really eliminate naked draws and pairs+draws completely. We can also factor in the other players call/fold as being the hand most likely pair+draw which would remove some of that from Barts range. You should be folding this turn IMO given this specific scenario. As played, hopefully you folded the river.

    With all of the data before us, this is a case where I think I could let JJ go on the flop to his action. I don't like the 3 bet because I am not sure what hands we would get him to fold given his likely range. He will jam over with an 8 or NFD IMO, and we weighted him away from naked straight draws already.

    Well sorry I went on and on. Interesting hand though. Hope this provided something useful for you
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    oh real quick just for fun Ill say my dark horse hands before you post results. Aheart2heart so sick but hes not jamming the river with this hand ever when the 8 always calls.

    As for air hands, I guess its possible, the double paired boards are tempting to go after...still the flop overbet 3 handed is just pretty hard to pull off with no equity in the hand. I guess the bricked NFD SFD could jam here. SO my dark horse bluff hand would be AheartQheart
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    so you have an overpair and Bart raises you on a very wet board.. His range is 9s fulls any 8 but most likely 78 , 10 8 , 68 , combo draws AX suited hands,, etc... if you stove your equity against this range you are way way behind.. If you were planning on taking one off and bart bet again what where you going to do then?

    see If I see bart raise me on this kind of board as me being he preflop raiser and a subscriber that I meant last week I am just not going to bs around. now the sbuscriber tank calls the turn.. to me (ie bart) this really looks like an over pair.. If I (bart brick out on the river will he call off with just an overpair.)

    now he shove all in making it look like he busted a flush draw.. ugg I have the way you played this on every street..

    guy its bart.. he is going to outplay you .. give it up you cant outplay him he is better than us. so when he shows strength on the flop I would just fold to bart as my main attention should be to the worse players .. not the best player at the table.. I dont get this.. why do guy insist on bad spot against really good player???

    why why why !!!11

    fold on the flop JJ dont do well againt this villain on this board,,
    move on

    ww
  • BartBart Posts: 5,831AdministratorLeadPro
    Hey guys,

    Just got back from the session at the Bike.

    Jeremy, funny thing is, I didn't realize until after the hand that you are a subscriber even though you came to the dinner last week. If I had known this there is a very good chance that I would have played the hand differently, maybe even have folded preflop. I approached this spot as if I was playing a total unknown at $5-$5 (normally a losing a player who can't get away from overpiars). When you bet the flop and us being both deep I figure that I had to go for gold and start building up a pot with my nut hand (I had 8s Ts btw). When you called the flop obviously I thought that your most likely holding was an overpair although you could have some overcards and flush draws in your range. When the turn bricks it really doesn't change anything and I wanted to make another fairly large bet to set up a river shove. In retrospect I should have bet a little bit larger--say like $350. The river brick card, double pairing the board was like a dream for me. I never expect a guy to be capable of folding that river after calling flop and turn and nothing changing. I was pretty dismayed when you folded but I will take this same line against typical $5-$5 villains all of the time and get paid off 9 times out of 10.

    With that being said if I had remembered you there is a very good chance that I might have changed my line up to something that you wouldn't expect. In fact I very well may have flatted the flop and bomb raised the turn on the brick or possibly even checked back the turn to confuse you--although I like option 1 a lot better. If I had taken the same line of raise flop bet turn that I did, now knowing you, I probably would have bet something like $350-$450 on the river instead of shoving--making it look like I could be bluffing with a draw and giving you pretty good pot odds to call.

    Anyway good laydown by you and now it makes me think that if I can't get paid off vs JJ in this spot that it was not profitable to call preflop only to hit my hand I've course I can flat in the future and ramp up my bluffing frequency making your life miserable :)

    Bart

    Bart
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Thehammah said


    guy its bart.. he is going to outplay you .. give it up you cant outplay him he is better than us. so when he shows strength on the flop I would just fold to bart as my main attention should be to the worse players .. not the best player at the table.. I dont get this.. why do guy insist on bad spot against really good player???

    why why why !!!11


    ww
    Because it makes for a great story to say you stacked Bart Hanson, more important than the money some times.
    One key left out of the original post was that if Hero knew, that Bart knew, he was a subscriber or not. (As Bart confirmed
    he would have played differently)
  • AesahAesah Posts: 1,048Pro
    ya don't think Bart bluffs here ever vs. an unknown with this sizing

    however, the only time i remember ever playing a decent size pot vs. Bart was winning 100bb pot with A high :P
  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    Yeah, there was a lot of leveling happening on my end. I wasn't sure if Bart remembered me or not, so that made it tricky to play.

    The river shove seemed bluffy to me, but if he didn't remember me is he doing that to a random person?

    Arrghhh....I think Wendy's advice is probably the best. Trust me, I didn't go looking to play a big pot with Bart. It just kind of happened. yell I don't care about having a story.

    Oh well, at least i didn't level myself into calling on the river.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    SatanLovesPoker said
    Thehammah said


    guy its bart.. he is going to outplay you .. give it up you cant outplay him he is better than us. so when he shows strength on the flop I would just fold to bart as my main attention should be to the worse players .. not the best player at the table.. I dont get this.. why do guy insist on bad spot against really good player???

    why why why !!!11


    ww
    Because it makes for a great story to say you stacked Bart Hanson, more important than the money some times.
    One key left out of the original post was that if Hero knew, that Bart knew, he was a subscriber or not. (As Bart confirmed
    he would have played differently)
    lol.. I would love to be in such a spot where Bart would spew off his whole stack to me. but then I would have to get quads against his top full house and really how often is that going to happen?

    That said if Bart didnt know who I was then I do think the hand would play differently.. But again I just dont see Bart trying the all in bluff on the river. He just made it LOOK like a bluff to get my stack.. And steve's tank call on the turn is such a live tell for an overpair its an easy shove for Bart..

    ww
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,085Subscriber
    Steve said

    Yeah, there was a lot of leveling happening on my end. I wasn't sure if Bart remembered me or not, so that made it tricky to play.

    The river shove seemed bluffy to me, but if he didn't remember me is he doing that to a random person?

    Arrghhh....I think Wendy's advice is probably the best. Trust me, I didn't go looking to play a big pot with Bart. It just kind of happened. yell I don't care about having a story.

    Oh well, at least i didn't level myself into calling on the river.
    BTW.. why were you at that table? I saw you there earlier and then Bart moved there from his first table. Was there a big fish you both were after? When I see Bart coming to my table I want to be as far away from him as possible. Other side of the table. I dont want to be on his right for sure and I dont think on his left is very good either..

    Wendy
  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    Thehammah said
    Steve said

    Yeah, there was a lot of leveling happening on my end. I wasn't sure if Bart remembered me or not, so that made it tricky to play.

    The river shove seemed bluffy to me, but if he didn't remember me is he doing that to a random person?

    Arrghhh....I think Wendy's advice is probably the best. Trust me, I didn't go looking to play a big pot with Bart. It just kind of happened. yell I don't care about having a story.

    Oh well, at least i didn't level myself into calling on the river.
    BTW.. why were you at that table? I saw you there earlier and then Bart moved there from his first table. Was there a big fish you both were after? When I see Bart coming to my table I want to be as far away from him as possible. Other side of the table. I dont want to be on his right for sure and I dont think on his left is very good either..

    Wendy
    I was there first. There was one live player that was supporting the game. I don't know if that's why Bart moved to the table, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was. As it turned out, he ended up busting the live one too. Just another reason for me to hate Bart last night!
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Aesah said

    ya don't think Bart bluffs here ever vs. an unknown with this sizing

    however, the only time i remember ever playing a decent size pot vs. Bart was winning 100bb pot with A high :P
    Sounds like next LATB you and Bart should play HU4ROLLZ!! :)

    With Wendy and Limon commentating.
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Bart said

    Hey guys,

    Just got back from the session at the Bike.

    Jeremy, funny thing is, I didn't realize until after the hand that you are a subscriber even though you came to the dinner last week. If I had known this there is a very good chance that I would have played the hand differently, maybe even have folded preflop. I approached this spot as if I was playing a total unknown at $5-$5 (normally a losing a player who can't get away from overpiars). When you bet the flop and us being both deep I figure that I had to go for gold and start building up a pot with my nut hand (I had 8s Ts btw). When you called the flop obviously I thought that your most likely holding was an overpair although you could have some overcards and flush draws in your range. When the turn bricks it really doesn't change anything and I wanted to make another fairly large bet to set up a river shove. In retrospect I should have bet a little bit larger--say like $350. The river brick card, double pairing the board was like a dream for me. I never expect a guy to be capable of folding that river after calling flop and turn and nothing changing. I was pretty dismayed when you folded but I will take this same line against typical $5-$5 villains all of the time and get paid off 9 times out of 10.

    With that being said if I had remembered you there is a very good chance that I might have changed my line up to something that you wouldn't expect. In fact I very well may have flatted the flop and bomb raised the turn on the brick or possibly even checked back the turn to confuse you--although I like option 1 a lot better. If I had taken the same line of raise flop bet turn that I did, now knowing you, I probably would have bet something like $350-$450 on the river instead of shoving--making it look like I could be bluffing with a draw and giving you pretty good pot odds to call.

    Anyway good laydown by you and now it makes me think that if I can't get paid off vs JJ in this spot that it was not profitable to call preflop only to hit my hand I've course I can flat in the future and ramp up my bluffing frequency making your life miserable :)

    Bart

    Bart
    NOT me you were playing! I think you have the nuts all day there!
  • Steve Posts: 149Subscriber
    I guess one of my main leaks is on display in this thread. I always think people are putting crazy moves on me. yell
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