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Bet sizing -I'm little lost In capped games

VernonJones Posts: 179Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
I understand what Bart recommends in deeper stacked games but in my 2/5 we mostly play at 60-200 bb. On the forum I am getting some feedback that my bets are too big and I'm getting pot committed but when I bet smaller I am sometimes getting you're bet looks weak. Knowing poker is always situational and you also have to mix up play, I am just looking for default lines to take . All feedback is appreciated:

1. Preflop EP at normal table I like to do 5xbb and a little more with AA Or KK so I don't get people calling with 56 after 4 callers are ahead of them. I mix it up by doing same with AK or some pp. If you raise to 20 you're getting 4-6 callers a lot of times and that can get you in tough spots with AA out of position.
MP I like to do 20 plus one bb per limper. LP I like to do same but not as much per limper and on button I like to do $35 max regardless how many limpers.

2. On the flop lets first assume we are in multiway with either overpair or tptk. On a wet board what is a good amount to bet let's say $100 pot ? How about dry board ?
Let's say we get one caller now on the turn what's a good % of pot to bet on wet board with his range hitting a lot of draws? How about dry?

3. If its heads up does the % change? Short stacks I'll play differently against but lets assume 100-200 bb

4. How about Cbets? Any thoughts on a good % of pots in multi ways on flop and turn? How about heads up, does it change?

5. Finally what if you have big hand like a set? Obviously it depends on opponents ranges but you want to play for stacks are you looking to bet more on flop and turn?


Again I understand this is wrong to say always do this. But we know Bart likes to cbet higher amounts than most to get v's off hands early and I am just looking for that type of feedback in capped games like this. I think you have to bet less but I am getting some feedback that my bets look weak so I'm obviously betting too little is some spots and maybe too much in others.

Comments

  • JCW Posts: 591Subscriber
    Too many questions that I would answer, "it depends." But here is something to try.

    Each time you raise in the game add +1bb to it. Keep doing it until you get the results you want. So if you normally bet x5 MP and get too many callers, try x6 next time. Then x7... etc.

    You will just find different games respond differently. There are players out there that will pay a high price to see flops. They want to play hands. If they are right behind you they can create a row of callers who feel priced in. Sometimes a different seat can make all the difference in the world.

    I played in one game once where there was a guy that wanted to see every flop. It became so silly. I just kept increasing my raises trying to find out where he would fold. I got to the point where I was raising x30 UTG and he was calling 100% of the time. This extreme situation is rare but does happen. It does happen on smaller levels everyday. There are guys out there that will call x10 without thinking twice with any two cards because they want to see flops. But they will not tell you this. You have to "ask".
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    I'm a fairly inexperienced player who plays in regularly short-stacked games. Huge adjustments have to be made. Remember that even if you have 100BB stack you're likely to be 40--60BB deep against a most players you're actively trying to play against (the fish).
    VernonJones said
    1. Preflop EP at normal table I like to do 5xbb and a little more with AA Or KK so I don't get people calling with 56 after 4 callers are ahead of them. I mix it up by doing same with AK or some pp. If you raise to 20 you're getting 4-6 callers a lot of times and that can get you in tough spots with AA out of position.
    MP I like to do 20 plus one bb per limper. LP I like to do same but not as much per limper and on button I like to do $35 max regardless how many limpers.
    Not all hands are created equal and a lot of hands you want as many people preflop as you can get. I'd rather go 5 ways in position with A9 suited than HU with the same hand. Thinning the field is entirely table dependent but 5x doesn't seem too much to me
    VernonJones said
    2. On the flop lets first assume we are in multiway with either overpair or tptk. On a wet board what is a good amount to bet let's say $100 pot ? How about dry board ?
    Let's say we get one caller now on the turn what's a good % of pot to bet on wet board with his range hitting a lot of draws? How about dry?
    It's tricky with small stacks. You should be willing to stack off lighter at 60BB deep than 200. Most times an overpair is ok getting it in. The texture of the board changes so much though. On a 773 flop a hand like 99 I'd want to keep the pot smaller but because QQ beats 88-JJ I'd be more willing to stack off there.
    VernonJones said
    3. If its heads up does the % change? Short stacks I'll play differently against but lets assume 100-200 bb
    Yes, play HU against your specific opponent and play their tendencies/ranges as specifically as you can.
    VernonJones said
    4. How about Cbets? Any thoughts on a good % of pots in multi ways on flop and turn? How about heads up, does it change?

    I like a standard of 50% myself for both value and bluffs (adjusting to player and board of course). If it's 4 ways I almost never C-bet as a bluff though, I keep that cbet about the same because the fact that you're betting into a 4--5 person field should get some credit on it's own and you don't want to be automatically pot committed if more than 1 person calls you .
    VernonJones said
    5. Finally what if you have big hand like a set? Obviously it depends on opponents ranges but you want to play for stacks are you looking to bet more on flop and turn?
    I raise my "standard cbet" for trips, bluffs, TPTK, Big draws etc.. I look to turn (and river) to set up for stacks or pot control.

    One last thought. It's so easy to get stacks in with 40-60BB any time you want, I find myself pot controlling much more often than trying to get it in as quick as possible. Feel free to critique any of my short-stacked play thoughts.
  • VernonJones Posts: 179Subscriber
    Thanks I like the idea of going 1/2 pot on flop for value or cbet and then adjusting on turn.

    Yes 60bb I don't have too much of a problem, the tough spots are normally 100-150 bb. I would say more than 70% of our game buys in for 100bb.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    Guys

    Bart talked about this on last week podcast. In general the more wet the more connected the board the more willing you should be in betting on that type of board as villain has a greater range of pairs and draws as opposed to a drier board. There range of villain is more weighted to made hands and therefore checking turn with say 60bbs is viable if the bet pot commits you.

    Bart also talked about the concept of taking a few more risk early in a cap game to get a big stack against the fish. The idea here is that we as better players will make fewer mistakes with big stacks and we need to get as much money on the table as possible. so the players that are not used to playing a big stack will make bigger and bigger mistakes.

    I found this of absolute great value because I too play many capped games under 100bbs. The added benefit is getting a wild image in the beginning then players pay you off later because they dont notice you changed after you have a big stack. This is a big more high variance but its also the only way to increase your win rate significantly at a capped game.

    ww
  • NicholasK Posts: 237Member
    Thehammah said
    Bart also talked about the concept of taking a few more risk early in a cap game to get a big stack against the fish. The idea here is that we as better players will make fewer mistakes with big stacks and we need to get as much money on the table as possible. so the players that are not used to playing a big stack will make bigger and bigger mistakes.

    I found this of absolute great value because I too play many capped games under 100bbs. The added benefit is getting a wild image in the beginning then players pay you off later because they dont notice you changed after you have a big stack. This is a big more high variance but its also the only way to increase your win rate significantly at a capped game.
    I have a lot of catch up to do on the podcast but I think the idea of taking higher variance lines early in a short stacked game very intriguing. I may skip ahead and listen to those capped game podcasts.
  • Medic2038 Posts: 27Subscriber
    VernonJones said

    I understand what Bart recommends in deeper stacked games but in my 2/5 we mostly play at 60-200 bb. On the forum I am getting some feedback that my bets are too big and I'm getting pot committed but when I bet smaller I am sometimes getting you're bet looks weak. Knowing poker is always situational and you also have to mix up play, I am just looking for default lines to take . All feedback is appreciated:

    1. Preflop EP at normal table I like to do 5xbb and a little more with AA Or KK so I don't get people calling with 56 after 4 callers are ahead of them. I mix it up by doing same with AK or some pp. If you raise to 20 you're getting 4-6 callers a lot of times and that can get you in tough spots with AA out of position.
    MP I like to do 20 plus one bb per limper. LP I like to do same but not as much per limper and on button I like to do $35 max regardless how many limpers.

    2. On the flop lets first assume we are in multiway with either overpair or tptk. On a wet board what is a good amount to bet let's say $100 pot ? How about dry board ?
    Let's say we get one caller now on the turn what's a good % of pot to bet on wet board with his range hitting a lot of draws? How about dry?

    3. If its heads up does the % change? Short stacks I'll play differently against but lets assume 100-200 bb

    4. How about Cbets? Any thoughts on a good % of pots in multi ways on flop and turn? How about heads up, does it change?

    5. Finally what if you have big hand like a set? Obviously it depends on opponents ranges but you want to play for stacks are you looking to bet more on flop and turn?


    Again I understand this is wrong to say always do this. But we know Bart likes to cbet higher amounts than most to get v's off hands early and I am just looking for that type of feedback in capped games like this. I think you have to bet less but I am getting some feedback that my bets look weak so I'm obviously betting too little is some spots and maybe too much in others.
    My normal game is a 100bb capped game. You can definitely get into some nasty spots with the SPR dynamics especially in straddled/raised multiway pots.

    1. I really like JCW's idea here. I myself toy with raise sizes to find that spot that fits what I'm trying to do (get folds, get calls,etc). Basically ask yourself what you're trying to do with the raise, and go from there. We've all seen those people that open ship AA or KK to pick up a couple of bucks, because nobody is ever calling. I'm currently in the middle of a discussion with someone over on DC about equity. Equity and number of people in the hand are inversely proportional. You want to maximize your pot sized, but you don't want to be playing in a 9way pot either.

    2. This has so much to do with villain tendencies, and effective stacks there's really no right answer. I tend to cbet a little bigger on wet flops (but sometimes I don't cbet really bad textures either) because like others have said villains ranges are more draw heavy typically. In a capped game multiway pot, it's not unheard of to be able to get AI by the turn. I like to make a plan for my hand (it's much better then just playing on the fly). Say we have TPTK (no spade) on a flop with 2 spades in a 4 way pot. I might plan to bet any non spade turn, but check back a spade. This is so entwined with table dynamics/villain tendencies though.

    3. HU I cbet close to 100% of flops.

    4. I think I already hit on.

    5. This depends so much on WHAT you flopped, and what the board is like. I flatted QQ the other day from a tight opener and the flop was QQJ. It's going to be hard to get money out of a lot of people on this type of flop without them picking up, so I checked it back (in the hopes that he'd improve). Now if you have 77 on an A75r board it's much easier to get calls from Ax hands and whatnot, so there's no reason to slowplay.
  • SatanLovesPoker Posts: 168Member
    Thehammah said

    Bart also talked about the concept of taking a few more risk early in a cap game to get a big stack against the fish. The idea here is that we as better players will make fewer mistakes with big stacks and we need to get as much money on the table as possible. so the players that are not used to playing a big stack will make bigger and bigger mistakes.

    I found this of absolute great value because I too play many capped games under 100bbs. The added benefit is getting a wild image in the beginning then players pay you off later because they dont notice you changed after you have a big stack. This is a big more high variance but its also the only way to increase your win rate significantly at a capped game.

    ww
    I am really simple minded, even if I double up and get a big stack, the fish just rebuy for a normal capped stack,
    or they double me up, they have my money, I need to get back. And alot of rec players just leave after doubling up. I don't
    think I agree with taking neutral ev moves to give a fish a stack of my chips, so they have a big stack.......
    or am I misundestanding something?
  • ThatOtherJeremy Posts: 314Member
    Thehammah said

    Guys

    Bart talked about this on last week podcast. In general the more wet the more connected the board the more willing you should be in betting on that type of board as villain has a greater range of pairs and draws as opposed to a drier board. There range of villain is more weighted to made hands and therefore checking turn with say 60bbs is viable if the bet pot commits you.

    Bart also talked about the concept of taking a few more risk early in a cap game to get a big stack against the fish. The idea here is that we as better players will make fewer mistakes with big stacks and we need to get as much money on the table as possible. so the players that are not used to playing a big stack will make bigger and bigger mistakes.

    I found this of absolute great value because I too play many capped games under 100bbs. The added benefit is getting a wild image in the beginning then players pay you off later because they dont notice you changed after you have a big stack. This is a big more high variance but its also the only way to increase your win rate significantly at a capped game.

    ww
    No really clear line on these sorts of questions, but I generally agree with Wendy (Via Bart) in that being more risk averse early in a session will pay off dividends at a later point, where your depth will give you more maneuverability. All of your questions are highly situational but I am willing to risk the most $ on boards where my overall equity to take the pot is strongest based on the opponent being able to continue with a very broad range of hands . Also boards where my perceived hand strength based on my preflop play belies my actual hand (backdoor draws, hitting with steal/resteal hands)
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    I wouldnt necessarily gamble it up early in a 100bb cap game but in one say 50 or 60 you should..The idea is NOT to give fish your stack as a give away. The idea is to get money on the table and get everyone gambling it up to have everyone deep. To this end Hero should be willing to take neutral EV gambles or flips or slightly -EV flips against anyone to make sure you have fish covered..

    You cannot buy in deep in these games and many time fish get big stack because of their plays. So to be able to cover fish you need to build your stack any way you can. Then as a player who can play deeper much much better then your avg cap game player you end up with a long run higher +EV spot even though your immediate short term EV may be slightly negative.

    do you guys c this? for meta game aspects you take neutral EV or slightly -EV spots to get big +EV spots against fish later in the session. You cant stack a fish with 200 bbs unless you have 200bbs..

    that said I am NOT talking about getting it in really bad. So you push AK vs say JJ or push overs with flush draw vs tp.. those kind of plays..

    The other benefit is you will look like a maniac and that will also give you +EV meta game aspects later in the session against all players..

    ww
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