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Free Video: CLP Video No. 287: Home Game Bart Reviews His Splashy At $1-$3 Deep Part 2

Free Podcast: CLP Podcast No. 54: Time Warp And Turn Value
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Hand from LATB $5-$5 $50 bb ante game

BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
V1 in +2 is loose, playing 45-50% VPIP and hasnt had a good session. Probably tilting a little. V2 on button is Nick.

$10k effective..

+2 opens $100. Hero 3! A J to $350, button cold calls, +2 calls.

$1,110 FLOP: J 4 2 +2 checks, Hero bets $425, fold, +2 calls
$1960 TURN: 9 +2 leads $800, Hero calls
$3560 RIVER: A +2 bets $2200 Hero?

In this hand +2 suddenly wakes up on the turn with a donk lead even after I 3bet preflop and bet the flop. I make top two on the river but he continues with a large bet size for a live game. What would you do with this money behind?


  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,845Subscriber
    Make it 5000

  • maphacks Posts: 2,009Subscriber
    Villain good LAG or just tilting rec?

    Vs good LAG I call, vs rec I raise.

    Very stupid line so I assume he is a rec so I would raise.

    The 5-5-50 game seems to be the kind of game where ppl will openraise any 2 suited and obviously not fold to a 3bet if they are tilting. (at least according to the highlight hands on youtube)
  • CraftBeerWizard Posts: 40Subscriber
    edited May 5
    If he is VPIPin 40% of hands, J9o and J9s are in his range although I doubt he calls a 3bet with J9o.

    A9 is the only Ace hand that could possibly donk-lead this turn (imo), but we block that. Maybe he semi-bluffs with Q10 or KQ here, but I think those type of hands would x/r the turn more than lead.

    OTR - there are 2 combos of J9s we beat, and 8 combos (I think) of AJ that we chop with. 9 combos of sets have us beat, (Don't put V on AA or JJ) Again, I can't see V showing up on the river with any A9 hands.

    Don't see any one-pair hands V would bet this way, doesn't make sense to raise in my opinion as there are so few hands that can call us that we beat. We also block a ton of the hands V could bluff with, but I don't think I'd be disciplined enough to fold here. I'd begrudgingly call.
  • JS84 Posts: 31Subscriber
    maphacks said:
    Villain good LAG or just tilting rec?
    Tilting rec. I watched this episode, so I won't comment on this hand since I know the outcome. I think he was down something like 20k or more at one point, most of it to bad bluffs or just playing bad cards. A few spots were unlucky, but it was mostly bad play and getting into spots he never should have been in.
  • philc Posts: 19SubscriberProfessional
    Mehh I want to raise, planning to fold to a 3bet but I’d probably just call. I guess it depends on who exactly the villain is (I haven’t watched this game yet so kinda in the dark). If it’s like Dennis or Jack I think raising to 5k and folding to a jam (they’ll just have 35 or a set when they jam and probably 35)is good because players like that will potentially have 2p and call or even just 1p and call, I never can figure out what they’re thinking. If it’s vs most players probably just call. The donk turn continue river range might include a lot of sets especially 99, and some air like missed clubs/QT etc and anyone with a sliver of card sense will know that J9 is no good when he gets raised on the river, worst hand that should call is like A9 and idk if there are enough of those to justify raising. But ya if you think he’s gonna call with J9 or worse then for sure raise
  • BeauMoore Posts: 10Subscriber
    edited May 5
    Im confused. Guess he has like 10 sets/quads, 2 J9s, maybe 2 42s and?.... Maybe he has AJ, would be a very odd turn lead though. I don't think we should be raising unless this guy is just out of control. We need like 28% and we have exactly that is its just 10 sets vs 4 two pair hands. Obviously he could be spewing with clubs or maybe some straight draw, but I don't think he shows up with something where a raise is the best play.
  • alecspade Posts: 73Subscriber
    I haven't seen this hand.

    Folding is out of the question against a VIP from the ante game (Uncle Abe, LG, Dr. K, etc). The sizing is a little worrisome. Turn donk is really weird too, maybe he has QT or J9s as others had said. Based on his huge bet on river I guess I'd just call. He can have all the sets (including 99).
  • Superfly Posts: 324Subscriber
    This seems like a clear call to me. Bad players don’t always have bad hands. And are you going to fold after putting in more than half your stack if he comes over the top? Sounds like he is bad enough to possibly have lessor 2P or busted FD, but I don’t see any reason to commit your stack to that possibility, when a set is definitely possible as well.
  • Latrell1515 Posts: 235Subscriber
    Aren’t we going to value own ourselves here in a pot this size? I’m never ever raising It’s a call IMO but I’m not that happy about it to be honest
  • Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    edited May 7
    Man, what a weird hand.

    The Ace should be a great card for Hero's range since he 3! pre, but villain doesn't seem that scared of it. Air-ball bluff seems really unlikely, so rule that out. Obviously rule out straights. I guess flush draws are possible, but seem really unlikely. I mean, is some suited 9x hand or QT of clubs really calling the 3! then calling the flop bet with just a naked flush draw, then bets turn, and then bets river when an A hits, against the pre-flop three-better? And he can't have the nut flush draw since Hero has Ac.

    So the only hands that make remote sense to me are J9, pocket jacks and pocket 9s, and I'm heavily leaning towards JJ or 99, simply because I see too many people check the river here with J9, scared that Hero has AJ.

    This is never, ever a raise. Actually I think it's probably a fold.

    Now - to be honest, at the table I don't know if I could lay down top two against a 'slightly tilting' bad player given the weird line, so I fully admit - I might sigh-call here, knowing I was probably beat more than 40% of the time, but it's still a fold.
  • ds2uared Posts: 309Subscriber
    edited May 7
    I am obviously never folding. Just a shrug-call for me here. He has every set and very, very few two pair combos, even for loose players.

    I am editing what I put up before because I am wondering if my logic was backward. @Bart, because we hold the A does that lean more toward just a call? If he holds the A, he picks up a lot of semi-bluff combos that river top pair and might call a raise. Because he can't have a semi-bluff that gets there, there is no value in raising his bluffs.

    Meaning you're only raising for value versus his value range, which is heavily weighted toward sets. Am I thinking this through correctly? Overthinking?
  • JredA Posts: 60Subscriber
    edited May 7
    My question is can we raise and get value (folding is not an option barring some reliable live read against described villain as we only need roughly 28% equity)?

    AND, if we raise for value what are we doing against a jam?

    Villain is heavily tilted towards bluffs IMO. Unless he is just spewing off and turning hands like KJ and QJ or even QQ into bluffs, which I would heavily discount, I can't find many hands he calls a raise with that we beat.

    We beat 42s & J9s = 4 combos

    We beat all his bluffs = All the club and straight draws that missed. All the combos draws like pair + FD's (9Tc, 89c, 54c, 43c, etc come to mind). And it sounds like this player might have some random bluffs mixed in.

    We chop w/ AJs and AJo = 4 combos

    We are behind all sets (22, 44, JJ, 99) = 10 combos

    Also the fact we have the Ac eliminates all possible AcXc combos he could have that may call a river raise.

    Due to the lack of hands that we could possibly get value from, I call.

    On the flip side, its interesting to think about if we ever have a bluff here as a raise. Not that it matters against described villain, but KJ (w/ no Kc) comes to mind, but thats about it unless we turn QQ w/ no club into a bluff. I guess my point is our raise would look so strong which might allow villain to get away from some of the hands that might call our raise thus reducing the chances we get paid on a value raise.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    This hand is discussed extensively as the first hand on the podcast today..

  • Dragon-Ash Posts: 203Subscriber
    Thanks - interesting discussion.

    I checked out LATB, appears to be $20 a month ($16.60 for annual subscription). Is it worth it?
  • workinghard Posts: 1,568Subscriber
    i vote for a shove and hope a worse 2 pair calls
  • neverlearn2 Posts: 2,845Subscriber
    nice recap bart.
  • alecspade Posts: 73Subscriber
    I'm curious about how this hand would have likely played out had Dave checked the turn rather than donking.
  • hustlin Posts: 299Subscriber
    I’m going to raise for value here. $5000 seems appropriate.
    Against this Kinda villain we have to raise here. He’s got a lot worse he can call with all day.
    Any kind of weird two pair .

    Just too much value to check back here IMO
  • howdy Posts: 1Subscriber
    About to listen to the podcast so I don't know the result yet:

    Never folding obviously. Raising large doesn't seem attractive nor really does raising small for the same reason: while we're probably ahead, what is paying our raise off >50% of the time? It's not like we actually have the nuts here, someone this tilted/laggy has all the sets (10 combos excluding AA) and likely the 4 53s combos.

    So I guess that means I'm flatting..? It probably seems weak to just call against someone this wide but I don't see a sizing that we can raise/fold to and we're (virtually) never good when we get jammed on, right?
  • BartBart Posts: 5,926AdministratorLeadPro
    So I considered clicking this up, protected by the fact that +2 wouldn’t shove back, scared of AA. But I looked at the suits on the board and realized that there were only 2 possible combos of J9s and it’s questionable whether he would take this river sizing with that holding.

    I also had the Ac which means he couldn’t have run into an ace with the nut flush draw. That really left sets only for value, possibly some 35s and bluffs. I called and was shown down 99. —Bart
    by 1hustlin
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