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J8 suited on button with Bart and a bunch of CLP subscribers & Apostle. Take the free river?

GarlandGarland Posts: 390Subscriber
edited May 21 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Please don't spoil results if you watched the Monday Stones Live Cash Game stream...

Location: Stones Gambling Hall in Citrus Heights, CA
Stakes: $1/$2/$3 ($1 on button) $500 max to start, but match the big stack afterwards.
Action game with lots of straddling and Apostle's range being anything that has "Stones" on the back of the cards. Took my seat 2 to the left of him strategically.

Pre-flop ($6): Taylor C ($1.8K) UTG+1 raises to $15, call by @Bart ($1.2K) UTG+2, Apostle ($1.5K) calls HJ, @alecspade ($708) calls in CO, I ($948) call on button with J 8, David M ($1.6K) calls in SB.

Flop ($93 - 6 players): T 9 6 Checks to me, I bet $55, Bart calls, alecspade calls.

Turn ($258 - 3 players): 5 Checks to me, I ??? (What would you do?)

Comments

  • workinghard Posts: 1,573Subscriber
    no one has anything better than 1 pair on flop. probably not top pair. lots of pair + gutter hands and QJ. they are deep enough for you to fire 215 in turn. if heads up on river, go all in on as a bluff on 5432A rivers
    by 1CycleV
  • CycleV Posts: 1,143Subscriber
    Agreed. If someone had something better than 1p they most likely would have let you know. And you have J high. You'd better fire and fire pretty big. I might go 190 but we're splitting hairs at that point.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    Sorry I missed you in the shoutout @garland today, I knew I had forgot someone. We had Russ, Taylor, myself Dave Miller and you on there. Bart
  • BartBart Posts: 5,975AdministratorLeadPro
    Spoiler:


    BTW the whole reason why I checked TT there is so that you would continue barreling with a hand like J8 or QJ!!

  • ds2uared Posts: 433Subscriber
    Am I way off in not wanting to bet this flop?
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited May 22
    ds2uared said:
    Am I way off in not wanting to bet this flop?
    My rationale: The pre-flop raiser has checked and besides SB, who may be checking to the PFR, everyone has had a chance to bet. While I don't really expect my bet to win the pot outright very often, I don't expect to get check-raised either. Is anyone with two pair/set/straight really going to trap the field? I want to build a pot in position. I have an OESD, one to the nuts in case someone has the 8 and peels with a pair and straight draw. I would like to clean up my J outs if someone has AJ in the field and if someone actually does folds KJ, that would be especially awesome as it cleans up the J and my straight draw to the top end. QJ is obviously not folding. The cherry on top: I have a backdoor flush draw. I can bet, see who calls and evaluate the turn for barreling opportunities.

    All that said, I'm willing to listen to why you wouldn't bet the flop...
  • JoneseyJonesey Posts: 132Subscriber
    6 ways to a middling card draw-heavy flop that hits most of the callers square in the range. 6 callers means 6 playable hands with coordination, and no-one 4 betting means less Aces and Kings, high pairs, so they're right on top of this flop. You're trying to wrestle better hands off with a draw, and it's not even the best draw. Possible made straights already and strong potential for sets. Maybe I'm just a chicken-nit, but I'm not pushing hard on this board with that many callers. And some of your Q outs are likely sitting in other players hands anyway. Would you do this with a bomb-pot? Because this is essentially a bomb pot with everyone having a playable hand, not trash.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited May 23
    Spoiler:


    My biggest regret after the show was not barreling the turn. River came K,Bart lead out for $140 and everyone folded.

    So why didn't I barrel the turn? My thought process...
    1. Bart called.
    2. Another player called.
    3. Bart called.
    4. I didn't pick up extra equity with a spade.
    5. Bart called.

    Anyhow, I end up looking like a genius in exactly this instance because in reality Bart had a set of TT. I'm guessing he's betting 99 and 66 and checking TT since he's blocking top pair. I'm not sure if he was planning to check-raise the turn, or if he was going to let me hang myself if it goes heads up, and let me triple barrel myself to oblivion.

    I would definitely barrel turn if there was only 1 caller or I picked up a spade. I made a decision which I think was wrong in the long term, but only looks good in hindsight.

    Hand reveals and additional questions/comments:
    Bart: T T (is he bet folding river knowing QJ is well represented?)
    alecspade: 9 8 (this is the hand that will be in trouble if a 7 appears)
    David M: A 3 (would you call pre-flop from SB even getting these odds?)
    Taylor M: 4 3 (interesting UTG+1 open)
    Apostle: Q 7 (as advertised, lol)

  • brick Posts: 127Subscriber
    Turned out well, nice hand! Would you have bet KQo on the turn? Assuming you got there PF somehow.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 390Subscriber
    brick said:
    Turned out well, nice hand! Would you have bet KQo on the turn? Assuming you got there PF somehow.
    KQo is a candidate to 3-bet on the button pre-flop. If I just called pre-flop, I would probably just take the free card especially seeing there is no way for me to increase my equity by picking up a flush draw.

  • ds2uared Posts: 433Subscriber
    Garland said:
    All that said, I'm willing to listen to why you wouldn't bet the flop...
    @Garland. These are some of my reasons. I'd love some feedback.

    1) Too many players. For obvious reasons, but also 6 players in the hand increases chances EP players (especially SB and BB) will check/check-raise their big hands on the flop. I'd be less worried about LP players check-raising, but this flop has most sets, some two-pairs (more likely for players closing out the action preflop), and definitely straights that I think will check-raise.

    2) When you make this hand in this configuration, you won't get paid much. Top end of your open ended is not the nuts, and when it comes in, top-pair changes; the bottom end is the nuts but a one-liner. An 8 will pay you on the turn or river regardless if a 7 comes down, so I don't worry building a pot for that target hand. But if someone else has an 8 now, they likely also have a pair and will continue. This is a decent scenario for you as multiple barrels will likely get someone to fold an 8+pair, but with so many players it's more likely you'll get called in multiple spots and have to shut it down. I don't want to build a pot in a situation where it's more likely I'll face multiple spots of resistance with a semi-bluff.

    3) I'd rather bet my gut-shots to the nuts (or close to it) in multiway pots in position when deep. You don't have to give up much equity if someone plays back at you. Your hand is super disguised when you hit and won't always change top pair. You can effectively run the same multi-street bluffs with your gutshots as you can with your open-ended draws.

    4) With it more likely on a draw heavy board with multiple players you'll face more villains after the flop, what cards do you bet on the turn or river? (I suppose that's the original question of the post, ha!) This is not rhetorical, I really don't know what to do on different turns in this spot.

    Cool hand and discussion. Cool outcome.
  • GarlandGarland Posts: 390Subscriber
    edited May 29
    @Garland. These are some of my reasons. I'd love some feedback.

    1) Too many players. For obvious reasons, but also 6 players in the hand increases chances EP players (especially SB and BB) will check/check-raise their big hands on the flop. I'd be less worried about LP players check-raising, but this flop has most sets, some two-pairs (more likely for players closing out the action preflop), and definitely straights that I think will check-raise.

    Granted there are a lot of players, but no one should be particularly strong (of course Bart makes me look bad here). I had already played 2 hours in the game and while pre-flop aggression was fairly high. It wasn't like people were trapping with big hands on the flop. People were betting their 2 pair+. Also, if you re-read the action, BB was out of the picture, so there was really one player that I worried about slow-playing, SB. I think this is a profitable bluff and barrel opportunity.

    2) When you make this hand in this configuration, you won't get paid much. Top end of your open ended is not the nuts, and when it comes in, top-pair changes; the bottom end is the nuts but a one-liner. An 8 will pay you on the turn or river regardless if a 7 comes down, so I don't worry building a pot for that target hand. But if someone else has an 8 now, they likely also have a pair and will continue. This is a decent scenario for you as multiple barrels will likely get someone to fold an 8+pair, but with so many players it's more likely you'll get called in multiple spots and have to shut it down. I don't want to build a pot in a situation where it's more likely I'll face multiple spots of resistance with a semi-bluff.

    When I make my hand on the top end, no one is really going to put me on KJ or J8, and I'm in perfect position to capitalize on Bart's set or turned 2 pair or one pair hands that turn a straight draw like JT or J9. When I make my bottom end straight, I am likely to get paid a massive amount with the pure nuts against an 8 if not stacking alecspade. A lot of these hands will lead at me, and I will be ready licking my chops for a thick value raise. My bet will also define the ranges of the remaining players. For example if alecspade was the only caller on the flop, he will encounter a double barrel on the turn. As far as top pair changing, QJ is another hand that will be forced to continue when a Q appears. Also, I find that when I bet the field from LP/button, people will tend to be straight forward when they turn a strong hand since they don't want to risk a check-back which emboldens me to continue my bluff.

    3) I'd rather bet my gut-shots to the nuts (or close to it) in multiway pots in position when deep. You don't have to give up much equity if someone plays back at you. Your hand is super disguised when you hit and won't always change top pair. You can effectively run the same multi-street bluffs with your gutshots as you can with your open-ended draws.

    This statement doesn't make too much sense. I have better than a gut-shot to the nuts. I have 4 outs to the nuts and 4 hours to a very strong 2nd nut. I guess you mean something to the effect of 2 overs and a gutshot? I still have an over, which I think is as valuable as the range of hands you're more apt to bet as described above?

    4) With it more likely on a draw heavy board with multiple players you'll face more villains after the flop, what cards do you bet on the turn or river? (I suppose that's the original question of the post, ha!) This is not rhetorical, I really don't know what to do on different turns in this spot.

    Let's say Apostle and alecspade called the flop and a blank turn appears, I was fully prepared to fire a big shell. If called again it further refines their ranges. People will probably ditch their raw peels of one pair hands such as 64 or A9 or A6. I'm probably going against a hand like QJ or something else that turned a flush draw. If a non-board pairing spade appears, I'm going to fire a big shell and ready to call off in the unlikely event of a check-raise. The A is a particularly nice card to barrel.

    Cool hand and discussion. Cool outcome.

    Thanks.
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