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1/2 Short stack vs deep stack super LAG

crux Posts: 106Subscriber
Villain in this hand is reg or local pro, regularly playing at 5/5 and 5/10, and is sitting with ~$1500. Very LAG. VPIP has to be close to 75% in this game, essentially opening every time folded to in any position, calling most opens, or over-limping late positions. Post flop continues aggressively. He is three to my right at an 8 handed table.

Hero is UTG, $185 effective 6 6 open to $12 (standard open at this table is $10-15)
Two field callers, V calls on the BU.

Flop ($51) 10 5 2
Hero cbet $15, folds to V raises to $50. Hero call.

Turn ($151) 4
Hero?


Spoiler:
Hero jams, V snaps.
River 9
V shows A 5
Hero goes home.

My thoughts on the play. I would usually limp here or fold pre, but it was getting late, I had been fairly card dead and the few good hands I've had had been beat by garbage, so I had opened my EP range a bit.

On flop, felt this was a good board for my UTG range to cbet. Called as I think V is making a lot of exploitative raises from his spot versus small stacks, and would have just flatted a bare 10. I also think he would have 3! pre w/ 99+. So, maybe he has me beat with 88, 55, 22, but not likely. I could see him raising middle pair or something like A3/A4 even. Considered 3bet. Thoughts on that?

I jammed turn thinking essentially what turned out to be true, that V likely didn't have a 10 or I think he just calls the flop, and didn't make the flush as I think he either flats or put me all in on the flop with 2 diamonds in his hand.

Results oriented, he sucked out, but interested in the line in general.
I think getting a little antsy and raising pre obviously was the beginning of the end.
Had I not set myself up to rep a stronger hand against the board, I could have easily check/folded the flop and/or turn.
Tagged:

Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    Based on villain description on the button, at 90 BBs deep I think 66 is an open-fold preflop UTG. Probably opening 88+.

    What range do you assign villain for raising the flop? Does he raise Tx? FDs? Complete air? Even if he's the laggiest of lags, put together a range for him, and I think you'll see 66 has poor equity and even worse visibility, as you have very little chance to get to showdown to realize your equity.

    As played, I'm still check/folding the turn. Are you considering open-jamming? Check/calling? (I haven't read the spoiler). That is a pretty bad card for you, as even his semibluffs are now beating you...
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    Now that I've read the spoiler...

    Spoiler:

    I think you are massively overthinking this.

    If you're opening as wide as 66 from UTG, this board is not as good for you as you think. You're right in that this is a pretty good board for you in a normal UTG raising range. But you're wider than you should be, and four ways to the flop. This makes this more of a neutral board, and if you're betting 100% on this, you're way over-cbetting.

    I'd agree that based on description villain would have raised a big PP preflop, but he still has a lot of Tx, 55/22, and big flush draws that raise the flop. Even if he is actually raising hands like he has, the majority of his range either has you crushed or is flipping. In fact, you kinda lucked out, as this is the absolute bottom of his range. Maybe A 2× is the only worse hand he has.

    Question: Were you jamming the turn as a bluff or for value? It sounds like you were jamming for value, but as we established, villain's entire range had you in bad shape. You got lucky that he was at the complete bottom of his range.
  • crux Posts: 106Subscriber
    dpbuck said:
    Based on villain description on the button, at 90 BBs deep I think 66 is an open-fold preflop UTG. Probably opening 88+.
    I agree. 88+ is more in line with my regular range.
    dpbuck said:
    What range do you assign villain for raising the flop? Does he raise Tx? FDs? Complete air? Even if he's the laggiest of lags, put together a range for him, and I think you'll see 66 has poor equity and even worse visibility, as you have very little chance to get to showdown to realize your equity.
    Honestly, I think this particular player is raising the bottom of his range to medium strength draws here more than his value hands, and possibly even pure air. Just from observing his play over the past couple of hours, I think he is one of those bigger game players (read bigger bankroll) that when playing low stakes is willing to let his strong hands ride when in position to try and extract the most value from EP bets. Obviously he could/should be mixing in the top of his range, too, but the pre-flop flat and bet size on the flop leave me thinking he is bluffing/semi-bluffing.

    I'm going to wait and see if there is any other feedback before responding to your spoiler post.
  • crux Posts: 106Subscriber
    dpbuck said:
    Now that I've read the spoiler...

    I think you are massively overthinking this.

    If you're opening as wide as 66 from UTG, this board is not as good for you as you think. You're right in that this is a pretty good board for you in a normal UTG raising range. But you're wider than you should be, and four ways to the flop. This makes this more of a neutral board, and if you're betting 100% on this, you're way over-cbetting.

    I'd agree that based on description villain would have raised a big PP preflop, but he still has a lot of Tx, 55/22, and big flush draws that raise the flop. Even if he is actually raising hands like he has, the majority of his range either has you crushed or is flipping. In fact, you kinda lucked out, as this is the absolute bottom of his range. Maybe A 2× is the only worse hand he has.

    Question: Were you jamming the turn as a bluff or for value? It sounds like you were jamming for value, but as we established, villain's entire range had you in bad shape. You got lucky that he was at the complete bottom of his range.
    Not following your logic on overthinking here.
    I was playing my range vs V's range as best as I could in game, as well as V's particular style/exploits as I've seen them. Not sure what else there is to do. I hadn't opened my range up that much. I essentially added two pocket pairs to my regular open range of 88+

    With such a high VPIP, is his range really crushing me on the flop and turn? Admittedly I don't use solvers, so i could be way off, but if he's in with 75% of hands and maybe 15% of those beat us on the flop or can outdraw us, is my spot really that bad?

    I was jamming for value. I thought I was at least on the good side of a flip at worst, all things considered.
    If we look at it as I jammed $158 expecting a call and the chance to win $467, how often do I need to be right to make that profitable, and against this type of player is that going to happen? Admittedly this is mathwork I could work on to be better in game.

    This is similar to another thread posted about how to counter super LAG play, I guess. It's tough to rationalize with straight GTO/ranging.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,055Subscriber
    It sounds like you're making his range predominantly air for raising the flop. If that's your read, then why not 3bet the flop?

    Even if he is "super LAG", he has A TON of hands with equity, and a lot of those hands gain even more equity on this turn card. Hey, it sounds like you correctly pegged him on a worse hand, so I guess I could be off on this. But to me it seems like he has way too many hands that have you in terrible shape to be shoving this turn for value.
  • Steveo76 Posts: 158Subscriber
    I can relate to this spot @crux. Please see my own post with 66 vs a 'big whale on tilt'.

    Your hand is different in that you opened from EP and went to a flop 4 ways. I closed the action in the BB, calling the whale's EP open in a heads up scenario. But both of us faced the prospect of 'holding on' OOP versus an aggressive opponent when the board brings likely overcards to our baby pocket pair.

    This is not an undertaking for the faint-hearted! I agree with you that versus a Villain like this, effectively playing 'any two', ranges and optimal play seems to go out of the window and you find yourself having to draw on something else - feel, instinct or just plain balls! You have to know that you are stepping out of your comfort zone and that it requires you to be brave.

    This leads me on to the hand in question. I have learnt that it is better on your heart if you don't choose a hand as low as 66 on the totem pole. If you do choose to go to war with it, make sure you are at least IN POSITION!! OOP I would recommend actually TIGHTENING your range over playing looser. Also having a preference for high cards. These are less likely to look at overcards on the flop leading to tough spots. Don't be in a rush to tangle with the whale. Let it happen. And if it doesn't happen and someone else takes his $$$$, so be it. You'll have your times in the great scheme.

    So, pre-flop I'm folding here.

    AP, on the flop I'm check-folding versus 3 players. If I do bet, I'm putting out a proper one. I don't see the merit of a downbet as played. It might even have been this small bet that inspired Villain's raise. AP, I am shoving over his raise or folding depending on that untangible 'feel' stuff that I'd hopefully be tapping into!

    AP, on the turn I'm checking to see what he does. Then I'm repeating my flop decision process.

    I'm sorry but I can't see how you could have been shoving for value on the turn, in response to @dpbuck. I think this bet makes more sense as a semi-bluff, having picked up gutshot outs and a possible flush draw if your 6d would be good.

    Whatever the shakedown, you'll be better prepared the next time a whale visits your waters!
  • crux Posts: 106Subscriber
    dpbuck said:
    It sounds like you're making his range predominantly air for raising the flop. If that's your read, then why not 3bet the flop?

    Even if he is "super LAG", he has A TON of hands with equity, and a lot of those hands gain even more equity on this turn card. Hey, it sounds like you correctly pegged him on a worse hand, so I guess I could be off on this. But to me it seems like he has way too many hands that have you in terrible shape to be shoving this turn for value.
    I did consider the 3! on the flop, and in retrospect it was probably the better play in this instance.

    I do agree that this line in general, from a strictly range/theoretical perspective, is a little OOL.
    This may be a place I struggle with factoring the nuances of the live game with the more "strict" lines of ranging for the long run.

    Not trying to be argumentative above, just trying to understand how to navigate these spots more effectively over time. Seems like the best bet would have been to just limp/fold pre, or fold OTF, overall.
  • crux Posts: 106Subscriber
    If anyone is curious for some player context, in the new CLP Video that @Bart posted with player DM5, DM5 is the V in this hand. I think it was even the same day. Must have just missed seeing Bart at the table.
  • Arenzano Posts: 1,459Subscriber
    You may want to examine the purpose of your opening size, and how it relates to your stack and range. Also, consider why you chose to cbet this board into the field. What does your bet accomplish, if anything?
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