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$5-$10 Reverse Float, I get there then get put to a decision. (Podcast 5/3/16)

BartBart Posts: 5,834AdministratorLeadPro
edited May 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
$5-$10 at Commerce, 12:30 am Sunday morning. Hero has just come over from a $10-$20 session as the must move game got bad. Villain in hand just doubled Hero up a few orbits before when Hero opened KK to $30 from the Button, and 4 bet V1's 3 bet from BB. V1 called. Flop came out 6 2 3. Hero bet half pot when was checked to, V1 check raised all-in, Hero snapped and KK was good. Villain is a younger mid to late 20s Korean kid. Moderate winning player. Could be a bit tilted.

Hero ($3200) limps in UTG with J T. V1 ($1700) in UTG2 raises to $40. Button ($1200) calls. Hero calls.

$130 FLOP: K 3 3

Hero checks. V1 bets $50 rather quickly. Button folds. Hero calls hoping that this may get checked through on turn to set up river bluff, or pick up equity on turn.

$230 TURN: 8

Hero checks. V1 thinks for a bit and bets $110. Hero thinks for a moment and raises to $330. V1 thinks for a bit and calls.

I feel like my hand looked a lot like a pocket pair when I check called flop and that he could have been double barrelling with air. I think it also looks pretty strong to call flop and check raise turn here when no flop draws were present.

$890 RIVER 9

Hero bets $600. V1 thinks for a long time (like at least 3-4 minutes) and finally moves all-in for $700 more. Pot is $2800, $700 to call. Hero?

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Comments

  • maphacks Posts: 1,999Subscriber
    Such turn raises are pretty weird reg vs reg. You obviously rep super thin but how can you have many bluffs here right?

    I still fold the flop on a paired board. I rather call if it was k43r.

    River is super awkward. Impossible to make a judgement. If i feel the guy is tilting and wide preflop, like A3s , 34cc - 67cc or even Q3s/43s I probably call.

    However flop sizing feels showdown heavy or nuts. So KK or medium pockets make the most sense to me rather than bluffs.

    Without knowing if the guy can be out of line pre I think I fold but I think it's pretty much a breakeven spot.

    Fold in 1500 cap game and call in uncapped games :D
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    Why limp TJs -- that is clearly an open 100% as it can profitably call most 3!.

    It is also an odd float. Because its a paired board your aggression yields little information if villain calls. You capped your range limping. What do you represent? Your capped at A3, and maybe the occasional k3s but kk,88 can still play perfectly vs you.

    As played and given the history it is a close call.
  • ActionTwin Posts: 146SubscriberProfessional
    I know for some reason people on this forum generally don't like to discuss preflop (even though it's extremely important) and I'll get called the "preflop police" but I'd fold preflop twice. Unless the game is extremely passive I think this is a losing limp and limp-call in full ring UTG. Isn't this bad in the same way that you talk about how calling out of the blinds with suited connectors is bad?

    You're getting a good price to call the flop for the reasons you stated but it's a little optimistic on a paired board. He could definitely have Kings full here with this sizing. It's a good sizing by him with the nuts because it induces plays and floats.

    When he bets small on the turn I'd be getting really suspicious and wouldn't even be thrilled about calling. I don't like a check raise (especially since you mentioned he could be tilted) because he can have KK and I don't think you're getting him off a king because what are you repping? He could also have higher clubs - AKcc, AQcc, KQcc all make sense. AA is possible too but flop probably bets larger.

    River is an easy fold given you need to be good 20% of the time. What do you beat when he's min-raising the river after you check raised him on the turn? Really looks like KK or nut flush. Can't even think of a hand he can have that you beat given this action. There are so few lower flush combos given the JT98cccc are all accounted for. And would he ever even raise the river with a smaller flush?
  • Rocketman74Rocketman74 Posts: 451Subscriber
    Pre: Fold>Raise>>>Limp

    Flop is optimistic

    Turn I like, you rep thin but you should often fold out a lot of his range (and you have equity when called.)

    OTR his pacing and his mild tiltiness make me call (without those reads, it's a fold.)
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Pre - I would probably also open

    Flop - I think this is generally ok, I would prefer the BDNFD but if you think V is overcbetting using this hand also is fine.

    Turn - His range is much stronger and we rep super thin OTR. 3x and 88. I do think we have both and not many bluffs so I don't mind the raise in general but when we don't rep much I feel like a tilted guy just might never fold Kx here even though we don't have many bluffs. Another reason why I like having BDNFD a lot here because we generally have enough SDV to call turn and not have to bluff.

    River - Like the bet, really like the size (although shoving is interesting). I call here. We have better hands, 33, 88, some better flushes, but not that many. Guy is tilted, he could just have 3x, a worse flush or K8s or something else stupid. We get shown KK sometimes, maybe 88 sometimes, sometimes NF but overall I feel like we have to call needing to be good 1-5.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,834AdministratorLeadPro
    edited May 2016
    quincyjack said:


    You capped your range limping.



    There's that term again.

    So do you never overlimp anything in LP because it "caps" your range? And what does a capped range refer to here..not KK? I can have A3, 33 and 88 pretty credibly here.

    FWIW when people use the term "capped range" 99/100 it refers to action post flop. In fact I have never heard of someone mentioning a "capped range" preflop and if they did it certainly wouldn't be for a hand like this where I can easily have quads.
    quincyjack said:


    Your capped at A3

    So my opponent is going to try and rep KK because I am "capped" at trips with the best kicker?? Come on.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    Bart said:
    quincyjack said:


    You capped your range limping.



    There's that term again.

    So do you never overlimp anything in LP because it "caps" your range? And what does a capped range refer to here..not KK? I can have A3, 33 and 88 pretty credibly here.

    FWIW when people use the term "capped range" 99/100 it refers to action post flop. In fact I have never heard of someone mentioning a "capped range" preflop and if they did it certainly wouldn't be for a hand like this where I can easily have quads.
    quincyjack said:


    Your capped at A3

    So my opponent is going to try and rep KK because I am "capped" at trips with the best kicker?? Come on.
    Yea I don't agree with you being capped a reason not to limp and you natural cap yourself all the time preflop. If you flat a raise you are capped at not having AA, KK, ect. This is why we check to the preflop raiser. We are capped and their range is stronger.

    However I would just raise because the hand is strong enough. It's right on the edge but in games without a lot of 3 betting I think we can raise.
  • Amicus Posts: 190Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    If your image is capable of bluffing, don't rep 3 flopped combos (33, A3ss A3hh) of hands against a player who probably understands combos?

    Maybe he was floating a turn C/R because he didn't believe you. I probably wouldn't give you credit for a big hand with the line you took either. If your hand looks like a pocket pair on the flop, you're repping what? Turned 8's full? I'd also expect you to fastplay a flopped monster some % of the time, so that takes out some of the A3s and 33 combos. It also has to be A3ss and A3hh specifically which is only 2 combos of A3s.

    So decided he still didn't believe you on the river, but he couldn't just call because he was floating the turn with a non-value hand. So he had to raise. Plus, even if you were value betting A3, he might think you would bet/fold

    Probably call if he's a little aggro and a little creative. Of course you beat nothing in his value range, but both hands look super polarized the way it played out.
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    Bart said:
    quincyjack said:


    You capped your range limping.



    There's that term again.

    So do you never overlimp anything in LP because it "caps" your range? And what does a capped range refer to here..not KK? I can have A3, 33 and 88 pretty credibly here.

    FWIW when people use the term "capped range" 99/100 it refers to action post flop. In fact I have never heard of someone mentioning a "capped range" preflop and if they did it certainly wouldn't be for a hand like this where I can easily have quads.
    quincyjack said:


    Your capped at A3

    So my opponent is going to try and rep KK because I am "capped" at trips with the best kicker?? Come on.
    Bart,
    Come on ?

    In context of what I said it makes perfect sense. It is a term of art -- it means something very specific. You do not credibly represent 88 IMO. Yes you could have quads but that is one combo. Full houses and trips are different here obviously and you can't have a FULL HOUSE . That is capped.

    You cap your range limping UTG here and that is fine in some situations. Limping small pairs is common and OK as you point out frequently. TJs is not best played this way and it is hard to imagine a situation where it is best played as a UTG limp. Playing the hand in this fashion put you in the situation. Playing it as a raise would be higher EV and make hand reading easier. Any thinking opponent will see you as having a weaker range here because you limped. And you do have a weaker range. You are making a straw man argument. Your mocking tone is misplaced.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,834AdministratorLeadPro
    edited May 2016
    I'm not trying to be mocking nor do I think I am making a straw man argument. I don't think that the term "capped range" has a place in this discussion. All of these terms are made up and semantics but I think it is more accurate to say that I have a thin value range or that I am not repping all that much. I also have limped in loose passive games preflop w 88 from UTG.

    I think a more important question is what hands am I limping w UTG that call the flop and raise the turn as a check raise that is a bluff? I may have made this move once or twice in the last 5 years at 5/10. And again having the occasional A3, pocket 8s or quad threes in this spot is not a capped range. How can our range be capped if we can have the nuts here? (In the form of quads, trip 3s and the occasional 8s full?

    Bart
  • Amicus Posts: 190Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    What hands are you limp calling with UTG and check/raising the turn as a bluff? Floats, and floats, and more floats. I always include some combos of floats in my opponents' ranges, both in and OOP

    Does any winning player really not think Bart Hanson is capable of floating a dry flop OOP?

    I would not be surprised at all if you called and he showed air

    I think this hand is more about image and metagame factors than actually ranges. Both of you know how polarizing aggression is on this type of board and should be aware of what the other guy is repping.
    Villain has a shit image against you at this point. Would he really make a move given this dynamic?
    On the other hand, he might be going out of his way to beat you in a hand.
  • iamallin Posts: 1,173SubscriberProfessional
    so he tank min raise shoved on you? His hand should come with a complimentary beer cause it is always the nuts.
  • aaron Posts: 498Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    Is Bart repping thin? Yes. But this is all the more reason for villian to call a river bet and not raise. I think it would be a little far fetched for villian to bet flop, float turn w air using that sizing, and then bluff river. Possible yes but not even remotely close to the 20% of the time bart needs to call to break-even here. Given that villian very rarely has air we have to look further into what he can be bluffing with. He would need to take a hand like AA/Kx or some pocket pair and turn it into a bluff. This leads back to Bart repping super thin and the fact that villains hand makes a great bluff catcher as opposed to turning it into a bluff. Even if villian decided to shove flushes on the river here they all beat JcTc outside of the rare 76/56/45cc.

    Villian value: KK (3), 33 (1), 88 (3), 99 (3)
    Bluffs - AA (1), AK (1) (I don't believe this but include to illustrate point)

    Bluffing 2/12 or 17%. This assumes he never shoves flushes as well which only makes the situation worse if he shows up w the occasional AK/AQcc.

    Feel wrong but FOLD

    *regarding preflop I'm sure Bart's raising this hand 80-90% so don't see anything wrong w the occasional limp. Zero percent chance I'm ever folding pre
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    aaron said:
    Is Bart repping thin? Yes. But this is all the more reason for villian to call a river bet and not raise. I think it would be a little far fetched for villian to bet flop, float turn w air using that sizing, and then bluff river. Possible yes but not even remotely close to the 20% of the time bart needs to call to break-even here. Given that villian very rarely has air we have to look further into what he can be bluffing with. He would need to take a hand like AA/Kx or some pocket pair and turn it into a bluff. This leads back to Bart repping super thin and the fact that villains hand makes a great bluff catcher as opposed to turning it into a bluff. Even if villian decided to shove flushes on the river here they all beat JcTc outside of the rare 76/56/45cc.

    Villian value: KK (3), 33 (1), 88 (3), 99 (3)
    Bluffs - AA (1), AK (1) (I don't believe this but include to illustrate point)

    Bluffing 2/12 or 17%. This assumes he never shoves flushes as well which only makes the situation worse if he shows up w the occasional AK/AQcc.

    Feel wrong but FOLD

    *regarding preflop I'm sure Bart's raising this hand 80-90% so don't see anything wrong w the occasional limp. Zero percent chance I'm ever folding pre
    We definitely can't give we all 88 and 99 and I would say giving him much more than a total of 2 combined combos is pretty liberal.

    I would say that a tilted guy has more than 2 bluff or worse value combos here.

  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    Bart said:
    I'm not trying to be mocking nor do I think I am making a straw man argument. I don't think that the term "capped range" has a place in this discussion. All of these terms are made up and semantics but I think it is more accurate to say that I have a thin value range or that I am not repping all that much. I also have limped in loose passive games preflop w 88 from UTG.

    I think a more important question is what hands am I limping w UTG that call the flop and raise the turn as a check raise that is a bluff? I may have made this move once or twice in the last 5 years at 5/10. And again having the occasional A3, pocket 8s or quad threes in this spot is not a capped range. How can our range be capped if we can have the nuts here? (In the form of quads, trip 3s and the occasional 8s full?

    Bart
    You can't have KK, you can have a very rare 88 combination. You do not play quads like this very often. A young winner player that watches you play for a couple of hours will assume you open a lot and that includes 88 whether you actually limp it once in a while or not. Your own podcaster (grinder) talks about attacking another pro with a CAPPED range who limped from early position and had a depleted range on the board in question.

    So you can have one severely discounted combo of 33. You have a severely depleted range in this spot where it matters whether you can have a full house. That is usually referred to as a capped range. The reference points in this discussion are the UTG range where you would have opened and the villain's range. They both contain a lot of stronger combinations after the stated action.

    If someone could only have a st8 flush in a spot, but had none of the other strong hands in their range they would still be capped even though the actual nuts is still possible. This is a similar spot.

    You are representing a very narrow range where most of your strong hands don't even beat the strong hands in the Villain's range. Your range is thus capped or deleted relative to the villain in the hand who can have all of your hands and 88,99 (occasionally),KK. The river is action representing a full house or at minimum the nut flush. The Hero is in the situation due to a number of suboptimal choices. They include not opening TJs and representing a very strong hand where Hero has a capped or depleted range. That is how the Hero is capped. It is also unlikely Hero plays quads like this at this stack depth and the villain will not include 3333 in Hero's perceived range again capping Hero's perceived range which is what matters.

    As to the Villain. He can have all those strong hands. Seems like he probably does have one. Given how you describe yourself, you get out of line enough that maybe you should call given the villain's view of you. This is what my original post said. It is not well played IMO at every street.
  • Amicus Posts: 190Subscriber
    edited May 2016
    Why do I have the feeling that Bart folded and the guy showed a hand like AJo for ego purposes?

    I didn't think of this point before. But if he has the As or Ah in his hand, that's a blocker to Bart having one of the combos of A3s which makes Bart look even more FOS which will make him want to re-float and bluff even more.

    So if villain has one of those blockers, he can realistically only give Bart credit for one combo of A3s, one combo of 33, and a rare 88. It's not 3 combos of 88, because Bart would raise 88 way more often than limp call pre-flop.
  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,001Subscriber
    I can't imagine villain taking that long, then shoving as a bluff. Instinctively, if players are going to bluff, they're going to do it "in rhythm" - not take too long, or too short. I just can't see A A× or AK taking that long, then turning their hand into a bluff.

    Can villain be shoving worse for value? A K, A Q, K Q all make sense with this line, as do KK/33/88 and potentially even 99 if he figures Bart can play a reverse float with a hand exactly like what he has. I just can't see him tank-shoving Kx, 3x (how many are in his range, anyway?) or a smaller flush. I'm folding.
  • BartBart Posts: 5,834AdministratorLeadPro
    This hand was covered in the podcast this week, relating to live tells.
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