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2/5 - 3rd ndf+dbl gutter otf, my cb gets raised, I pick up pair ott and shove - critique my play pls

MSK Posts: 53Subscriber
edited June 2016 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
2/5 game in SoCal. Villain is early 50s in a harley davidson shirt, rec player. Game started 20 minutes ago, this is my first hand.

Hero opens 20 in MP holding Q 8 Villain thinks for 5 seconds, looks like he wants to raise, then just calls on the button, SB calls. SB is middle-aged asian, seemed loose. $450 eff

Flop ($65): 9 6 T

What is my play here? Checking seems weak, check-calling seems even worse so cbetting seemed like the best option as we can call most cb raises if we get raised & we can double barrel alot of turn cards. Opinion on this line of thinking?

SB checks, Hero bets $45, Villain thinks for about 5 seconds again, asks how much my bet is (he knows exactly how much it is) and then verbalizes his bet: "100 on top".

Based on experience, I think the asking how much the bet is when it's a small amount is strong but his "100 on top" was weak in the way he said it and the sizing itself is weak. AA,KK are obviously out of his range, so QQ or JJ but I block one Q. I think he would make it bigger with JJ so taking this out as well at this point. I put him on AK,AQ,AJ, maybe with one diamond. If he had 2 diamonds with 2 over, I think the sizing would also be bigger to realize fold equity, but then we assume he knows all of these things.. rec players tend to make bigger bets with bigger hands so seems my thinking is valid?

Hero thinks for about 10 seconds and calls

Shoving here is definitely overplaying and it's so rare that players raise a cbet and then fold. If he was a younger wannabe-pro, maybe that could happen but this player would rather overplay his own hand than fold here. I don't think he has air and just decided to: " take it away from me" because my cb wasn't weak in terms of sizing, position or number of players.

Turn ($355): 8

I think shoving here is the only play really. We hit a great turn card, not the best, but still great. If he now somehow has a straight, I can still hit my flush and now it is very hard for him to call with any value hand that raised the flop except a set.

Hero shoves, $285 to call for Villain. Villain goes in the tank for more than 2 minutes. After 2 minutes, Hero says: "You know there are no cameras rolling right now?". Villain seems annoyed at this remark, tanks for another 30 seconds and

Spoiler:
folds


After the hand:

Spoiler:
Villain later, after we are on good terms again, says he folded J T which I find hard to believe but would explain his pre-flop pausing. It turned out later he played all of his buttons loosely with quite a few 3bets mixed in.





Comments

  • dpbuckdpbuck Posts: 2,027Subscriber
    Nice Hand. I agree with your analysis the whole way. Nothing really more to add.

    Spoiler:
    I don't buy that he folded JTdd on this board. That line from him seems more or "making a move" with something like A 9×.
  • DrSpace Posts: 716Subscriber
    edited June 2016
    The open is marginal that stack depth.
    Your guesses as to his hands when he raises seem really odd.
    Shoving the 8 is meh.
    Not a fan of any of the decisions except the cbet.
  • MSK Posts: 53Subscriber
    quincyjack said:
    The open is marginal that stack depth.
    Your guesses as to his hands when he raises seem really odd.
    Shoving the 8 is meh.
    Not a fan of any of the decisions except the cbet.
    why do you think my guesses are really odd? They might be so good to point that out but would like to hear more reasoning.

    How would you have played that hand and why?

  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    Haven't read the spoilers, but I agree with quincyjack. It's a dubious open at this stack depth, cbet is just ok. I think i prefer a check raise on the flop.

    I might fold to the raise on the flop. I don't think it's correct to be dropping 2 overs/2 diamond hands from his range. I think his sizing is fine with those hands.

    I dont think the eight on the turn helped you much, equity-wise, so I don't think the turn becomes a spot to shove.

    Overall your entire line looks full of shit.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    Just read the spoilers. I flat out don't believe the guy had the hand he says he had
  • BartBart Posts: 5,959AdministratorLeadPro
    BananaStand said:


    Overall your entire line looks full of shit.
    Why do you have to act like such an asshole here? Is it in your nature to be combative at every corner? Do you realize that a lot of people have you on ignore in the forums because you can't act and post in a civil manner?
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    edited June 2016
    Well I'm pretty sure I've seen the phrase "line looks FOS" pretty often around here. It wasn't meant as an insult or combative. Apologies if someone misunderstood.

    Bart, I'll add you to the list of folks who name-call and hurl insults in your posts. This isnt even the first time yoube done it to me. I've never said a bad word about anybody or personally attacked anyone the way I have been here.

    Some folks dont care for my strat. That's their problem. If they want to fling insults and daggers at me, I will respond. I don't see how that makes ME combative

    Everything I've ever posted is poker related. Can't say the same for the rest of the group
  • chilidog Posts: 2,427Subscriber
    There is definitely a difference between offering constructive criticism and being combative. You teeter on that edge, with many falls over the edge.

    Being aware of your own image is a big part of poker, and a big part of participating in a forum. Think about the tone that others may perceive as they read your words.

    It's not about fitting in: it's about offering thoughts and posts in a friendly way that doesn't put people on the defensive all the time.
  • stayinschool Posts: 2,969Subscriber
    I mean at some point it isn't a debate. If everyone says you are being a dick you are being a dick. It isn't up to you to decide it is up to the people you are interacting with.
  • MSK Posts: 53Subscriber
    BananaStand said:
    Haven't read the spoilers, but I agree with quincyjack. It's a dubious open at this stack depth, cbet is just ok. I think i prefer a check raise on the flop.

    I might fold to the raise on the flop. I don't think it's correct to be dropping 2 overs/2 diamond hands from his range. I think his sizing is fine with those hands.

    I dont think the eight on the turn helped you much, equity-wise, so I don't think the turn becomes a spot to shove.

    Overall your entire line looks full of shit.
    I'm with you on dubious open, not defending this, the hand probably would elicit alot of "fold pre!" responsed on another pokerforum but that's why I'm posting it here.

    You say you would c/r the flop, can you elaborate on why you would c/r. Especially because if you are worried about the line not making sense or being FOS, a c/r as the pf opener in a 3way pot on the flop, is just the epitome of an action that looks FOS as I basically declare that I have zero strong value hands in my range.

    If the turn is not a shove (the 8 gives me equity AND should be scary for him as he is most likely not on a draw) then what should my turn play be and why?

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,086Subscriber
    stayinschool said:
    I mean at some point it isn't a debate. If everyone says you are being a dick you are being a dick. It isn't up to you to decide it is up to the people you are interacting with.
    lol. i am ignoring him and I can still tell how much hes bothering people. but the bottom line is he thinks we are the problem.
  • BananaStandBananaStand Posts: 1,455Troll
    Staying on topic, @msk, I would check raise because you have as many as 16 outs on the flop and figure to be a solid favorite. Under 100BB, it's probably +ev to just get it in herr.

    Stacks get too weird on the turn if you just call and miss.

    The 8 puts a 4 liner out there which makes your shove look like it's full of sh..., I mean, unreasonably suspicious, and you're no longer an equity favorite
  • BartBart Posts: 5,959AdministratorLeadPro
    edited June 2016
    First of all, I don't believe that the villian has J T in a million years. He flops flush draw and top pair, raises you then turns OESDFD with top pair? Even if you have a 7 he has the right equity to call. This is BS.

    As played I cbet the flop and usually call the raise in the flop. I agree with the assessment that Villians are very rarely going to raise - fold a cbet on the flop (less than 5% of time w these stacks). So I want him to make a sizing mistake on the turn if it's a blank. Sure you have a boatload of equity but this is almost always 2 pair plus. He doesn't know what u have and you know what he has. That's always a good spot. I also don't like the all-in on turn, I really don't think you are getting anything legitimate to fold and you very well might get a free card or a small turn bet.

    And yes pre is a little light.

    Bart
  • MSK Posts: 53Subscriber
    thanks guys, your comments have been helpful&appreciated!
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