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How unnecessary is this high variance hand? Alternative line suggestions appreciated

UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
edited November -1 in NLHE Strategy Discussion
Typical weak loose-passive 2/5 game

Villain has proven to be a little spazzy. I saw him overbet a 679 two-tone flop with complete air into 3 people as a cbet. Also overlimped and re-popped one other time before, kind of like this hand.

Villain has 1075 effective, I cover

Limp, limp, villain limps in MP
Hero has QcTd otb and raises to 30
SB folds
BB calls
EP limpers both call
Villain raises to 80

This is annoying. What is he repping by overlimping two limpers and then 3-betting an absurdly small amount?
We can
a.) Fold anyway despite his play being annoying, getting great pot odds, and having the button. Because the pot is likely to be multi-way if we call, and QTo isn't a strong hand
b.) Flat and use position and superior post-flop skills to outplay
c.) Call bullshit on his 3-bet and 4-bet

Suggestions pre-flop appreciated.

In the actual hand, I opted for option c, thinking he was FOS but also clueless about sizing.
Hero raises to 210

BB tanks and angrily folds
EP players fold
Villain calls without much thought

Ok, I have no idea what this guy's 4-bet OOP calling range is. It shouldn't consist of any non-premium hands, but maybe he's getting stubborn with something

$510 pot to flop
Flop comes
Kd Jc 6s

Villain checks

Do we:
a.) Jam 865 into 510 as a semi-bluff with our open-ender
b.) Make a normal size c-bet and be forced to call off if he jams
c.) Check back and try to hit or a potential delayed c-bet

Comments

  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    claire

    what is villains perception of you? I think that is very important in whatnhis line would be.

    Wendy
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Ok, let's say hero's image is on the more aggressive side but not a maniac.
    And iso-raises the button frequently but not enough that he can depend on me to raise.
  • Fish Fryer Posts: 161Member
    ClaireChiang said

    Typical weak loose-passive 2/5 game

    Villain has proven to be a little spazzy. I saw him overbet a 679 two-tone flop with complete air into 3 people as a cbet. Also overlimped and re-popped one other time before, kind of like this hand.

    Villain has 1075 effective, I cover

    Limp, limp, villain limps in MP
    Hero has QcTd otb and raises to 30
    SB folds
    BB calls
    EP limpers both call
    Villain raises to 80

    This is annoying. What is he repping by overlimping two limpers and then 3-betting an absurdly small amount?
    We can
    a.) Fold anyway despite his play being annoying, getting great pot odds, and having the button. Because the pot is likely to be multi-way if we call, and QTo isn't a strong hand
    b.) Flat and use position and superior post-flop skills to outplay
    c.) Call bullshit on his 3-bet and 4-bet

    Suggestions pre-flop appreciated.

    In the actual hand, I opted for option c, thinking he was FOS but also clueless about sizing.
    Hero raises to 210

    BB tanks and angrily folds
    EP players fold
    Villain calls without much thought

    Ok, I have no idea what this guy's 4-bet OOP calling range is. It shouldn't consist of any non-premium hands, but maybe he's getting stubborn with something

    $510 pot to flop
    Flop comes
    Kd Jc 6s

    Villain checks

    Do we:
    a.) Jam 865 into 510 as a semi-bluff with our open-ender
    b.) Make a normal size c-bet and be forced to call off if he jams
    c.) Check back and try to hit or a potential delayed c-bet
    On the hand when V limped and 3b, did he showdown a hand that you got to see? Do you think V is capable of limping big hands hoping to get the chance to 3b, assuming that multiple players will call the initial raise?

    IMO, the problem with raising this hand preflop is that if it is a typical 2/5 game, you are going to induce a series of calls and effectively build a large pot that your hand doesn't play that well in. What do you do on a flop of K84 when someone leads into you?
  • Claire,

    I would just fold preflop. It seems very strange what this guy is doing but there are better, less variant spots. I also hate calling to try to make plays later on especially with Q hi having no sd value.

    As played I dont mind just betting say pot. Even though everyone should know you are never folding to a craise I think it looks stronger than just a jam and you may not be called as light if you were to jam.

    You dont want to get cute with a standard cbet and have a guy hero call with a J or make some stupid craise when he thinks he is bluffing but has the best hand. Put him to the test.

    Bart
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    On the hand when V limped and 3b, did he showdown a hand that you got to see? Do you think V is capable of limping big hands hoping to get the chance to 3b, assuming that multiple players will call the initial raise?

    No idea what happened the last time he did this. Everyone folded.
    But he likes to make plays pre-flop that rep nothing. He also likes to backraise when he calls a raise and somebody squeezes with the "You're squeezing so you're probably weak. I'm going to re-pop you" mentality without considering what he's repping.

    I guess it's possible that he could have overlimped with a big hand hoping someone would raise behind, but unlikely.

    When I played him a few months ago, he called a raise, I squeezed from the BB, intial raiser folded, and he backraised me. I 5-bet bluffed and he folded, and I showed him K8s. But I'm not sure if he remembers me.


    IMO, the problem with raising this hand preflop is that if it is a typical 2/5 game, you are going to induce a series of calls and effectively build a large pot that your hand doesn't play that well in. What do you do on a flop of K84 when someone leads into you?

    At this game, a lot of the time when I made it 30-35 from the button, everybody would fold because they don't wanna play OOP against me. I find it worth raising for the chance of picking up the limps, even though sometimes everyone will call, and I probably have to give up when I flop nothing.

    Obviously, fold if it's multi-way.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    ClaireChiang said

    Ok, let's say hero's image is on the more aggressive side but not a maniac.
    And iso-raises the button frequently but not enough that he can depend on me to raise.
    I think this makes a big difference.. If my image is laggier I tend to raise with real value hands and try to steal a bit less.. So I might overcall with the QT and use my laggy image when I flop a big hand and someone thinks I am making a play ...

    That said given you preflop play I think you should bet.. around 1/2 pot should do the trick.. If they tag along I guess I am giving up..Unless you think you can get them to fold to an all in on the turn.. but thats about it.. and as you said a very high variance play and we all know just how much I looooovvvvveeee variance.. lol

    Wendy
  • Raskolnikov Posts: 3Member
    In Bart's last article he mentioned how 80% to 90% of mistakes generally happen pre flop. In my opinion, I believe this is where your mistakes began. I speak of this from experience, I have made several plays like this in the past, and I usually end up in sub optimal spots. This is a 2-5 game and much like 1-2 its limp, limp,limp ,raise, call, call ,call. Q-10 is not a very good hand (looking at my stats, I have lost more money with this hand than any other hand). Anyways, the only thing you have going on for you is position, which is extremely important. Other than that, I believe you're putting yourself in spots that you really don't need to. These games are usually very profitable for a good thinking player so just wait for better hands and value town these players. Your options were to fold pre flop(optimal),limp behind(not bad),raise, you're getting called almost every time;did you expect that?( sub optimal in my opinion with your holdings). Lastly after you raised and got a couple of callers the worst case senerio happened,you got 3 bet and you're in a weird spot.

    At this level people do remember when you have bluffed them and I bet he may have remembered that. Once you show them a bluff they usually think you're always bluffing,and will call you down in marginal spots because, ' You must be bluffing'.

    How the hand ended up going I like a bet of $425 on the flop and hope for a fold. If he calls or shoves, Ace or nine onetime!
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    So what I'm getting is that most of you would cbet the flop?

    Rask, to address what you said about 80% to 90% of mistakes pre-flop, he meant for small cap games. As in if the max buyin is 40BB. When you're that shallow, you want hands that can flop a strong top pair, and you play TPTK like the nuts. It doesn't matter how good you are, it simply won't be profitable for you to call raises with your 54s or your 44 because stacks are too shallow to realize imply odds.

    When you're deep-stacked like in this 200+BB game, it's the opposite. There's a lot more play post-flop, and the bigger mistakes happen on the bigger bet streets, like the turn and river, when someone might make a 100BB mistake.

    This is a little off on a tangent, but
    I believe button iso ranges should be polarized to premium to semi-premium hands and hands that are playable but don't flop quite well enough to overlimp. Limp hands that flop well that you don't mind seeing a multi-way flop to. Because when I raise, a lot of the time everybody folds, and I win all the limps.

    For example,
    overlimp T9s, but raise QTo
    overlimp A3s but raise ATo
    overlimp 55 but raise KJo
  • Raskolnikov Posts: 3Member
    I understand what Bart was talking about in the article I mentioned. However if you ever think that Q -10 is going to play profitably in any of those spots(raise, call a raise, or 4 bet against that opponent, you're going to find yourself in sub optimal spots.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire

    As a women player I can assure you that more players will remember you. There just aren't that manny women who play we stick out. Now throw in the fact if you beat a player in a big pot because you outplayed them, then I think even more that it is YOU they perceive as full of shit and not the other way around. If this dynamic exists then I really hate your play.. Make that same play with the same player when you have AA or KK and you will get all of tilt boys money..

    I think there are great spots to make plays like this best when you think there is alot of fold equity.. In multiway pots its just that much harder..


    Wendy
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    how would you play AA; play AK??
    you were repping that, so i think it's profitable to continue repping that; although AK must make up a % of his range, even JJ;
    we can still get hero folds enough to make it profitable, and w/ the overlay from our equity in the pot and a SPR of less than 2:1
    you could bet a little more than 1/2 pot and be committed, and kinda-happily call off in the worst case scenario.
    or we get a stubborn [call to re-evaluate] call on the flop that can't continue w/ the @ pot-sized turn shove that you set up.??
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
  • ShawnCrichley Posts: 11Member
    I'd probably fold after the limp re-raise, but I am not folding this hand to me when it's limped to me on the button, relatively deep. Rasko, why are you folding this pre on the button? Why not over limp?

    I could see this being a losing hand online over the long term especially with 100bb cap. Also people are going to play more aggresive there punishing you when you try to draw or make top pair weak kicker. Even with the rake, I guess calling the button and taking a flop 6 ways would be profitable.
  • grindbler Posts: 131Member
    ya, pre flop i dont like this at all, and it prolly qualifies as FPS outside some weird dynamic/ metagame thats going on, which isnt...
    it's like it's spew because in a way we are just trying to win the $ in the pot at the moment w/ the 4 bet, but at the same time we should know he is almost always at least calling, so i don't see a clear line of thinking or a specific plan as much as clicking buttons. it's true that opponents line is pretty weird, but sometimes they take weird lines with hands that are stronger than we would think; we would never play it that way, so we can end up thinking that they wouldn't so they can't have it.
    If you observe the table making big mistakes you would never make, and after the flop play is lacking, then putting in this much preflop with crappy values
    against an aggro this does seem highly unnecessary... when we can get in cheap and let opponents who are less fundamentally sound gift us through their mistakes, then you don't need to make hero plays like this where its pretty coin-flippy for big $ for no reason, and we are over-rating our ability to 'outplay' them.
    at 5/5 you outplay them by just playing more fundementally sound, knowing the game better, thinking about it more than they do (which isnt that hard),
    not with fancy plays; maybe at higher stakes where people arent making the kind of mistakes we can take advantage of continuously at 5/5...
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    I didn't consider this at the time, but if I might check back the flop with AA or AK here, which means a delayed c-bet might be better here. I mean, if he has like 88 or something, he still shouldn't call a delayed c-bet. Then, I can also call a reasonable size turn bet if I miss to try to hit the river.

    If anyone cares...

    I bet 275 on the flop, he jammed, and pot odds obviously mandate a call

    Turn...
    9!

    River...
    J
    ...dammit

    I nearly puked when I saw what he had. 66.

    The good news is, I got to muck my hand and let everybody think I had AA or AK. Nobody's going to put me on exactly QT.

    The BB who folded claimed he had JJ, and cursed about how he should've jammed pre because JJ is like the nuts with the way we "tournament kids" are always "clowning around" and we never heard the end of him.

    Ridiculously played by villain. Why would he bloat the pot with a hand like 66 when he could setmine in a nice pot multi-way? And then calling a 4-bet OOP getting improper setmining odds. I'm not sure what his plan was if he didn't hit a 6.
  • ThehammahThehammah Posts: 7,090Subscriber
    Claire

    I just think he thought you were full of shit and was going to teach you a lesson. I have seen it so many time.. You got him before and now he has his manlihood at stake.. Gonna teach that laggy girl a thing or two..

    I wonder what his face would have been like if the J hadnt hit the river .. I wonder if he would have poped a blood vessel right there at the table.. See this is the perfect example of why so many players are just so horrible they can't help themselves and get super lucky..

    btw.. you still planning on coming out to LA for a while? I remember you were thinking in January some time for a few weeks to "check things out" You will find the games here very very different then back east.. There its always trap trap trap.. Here is it alot more aggressive so it should be value valuevalue..

    Wendy
  • UntreatableFPS Posts: 1,004Subscriber
    Right now it's Vegas for January and TBD after that. I don't plan very far ahead, as you can see :D
  • SkinnybrownSkinnybrown Posts: 286Member
    Claire,

    Great hand history.

    I prefer to over limp this hand preflop in this spot. we are somewhat deep and our biggest edge is postflop.

    I don't see much of a reason to bloat a pot with a medium strength hand.

    As played preflop I am just going to fold to the raise. We have close to no idea what range he is doing this with and will be in a lot of awkward spots postflop.

    As played on the turn I think betting close to pot looks strongest.

    Regards,

    Skinnybrown
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